I called a friend who is a believer...

[Nay_Sayer]

Religion rots the mind, it makes normal people say and do things they never would.

[Godscreated]

I'm not going to respond inline because I'm not interested in doing a tit for tat on every minor point.

Does this mean your not interested in this type of conversation, if so say so and we can drop this.

1. I'm not going to try to convince you that you're living a lie, because you've already said that nothing could sway you from your faith.  I was also unshakable in terms of other people talking me out of my belief, so I get that.  I had to deconstruct it on my own.

There's a big difference in you and me, I see no reason to deconstruct what I know is real.

2. I'm not saying that it's impossible that I'm 100% wrong and that your faith is legitimate.  I'm saying that our conclusions are incompatible.  I can't reach the conclusion that it was all a delusion and still accept that it's true for other people.  I think you're probably sincere in your beliefs, just as I was, but now I'm just as sincere in my non-belief.

I don't think you are so sincere in your non-belief. See the bold above. Not only that how sincere were you in your faith if you looked to deconstruct your own faith. I could understand questioning things but, to deconstruct what you seem to say was important to you.

3. If God is Truth then Truth is God.  Your objection to this point makes no sense, plus you contradicted yourself.  You said "truth can never be God" and in the next sentence you said "God is truth, love, compassion, caring, salvation and ect".  You went on to say that God is reality, which makes my point for me.

God is truth because of who God is, truth would not exist without Him. Truth is not what God does, truth exist only because He does not visa versa. reality wouldn't exist if God didn't exist, God is reality because of who God is, reality could have never made God because there's no reality without Him.

4. You're basically saying that you turned to faith to guide you out of your doubt.  In other words, you relied on your subjective experience rather than what your five senses were telling you.  The biblical definition of faith is "the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen".  In other words, it's believing because you want something to be real, and the belief itself is what makes it reality.

My five senses tell me the same thing my objective and/or absolute experiences do. I do not believe the subjective has a place in a relationship with God who is absolute. Now let's break down what the verse you quoted, " the substance of things hoped for," these are the things promised by God such as forgiveness and salvation. "the evidence of things not seen," meaning through our spiritual relationship with God we can know He's real, also through miracles and answered prayer and yes I've experienced these things in my life. So I and scripture disagree with your conclusion. Tell me why would carnal man want to believe in a God that doesn't exist, why would man subject himself to such things? If there's no God then there would be no convection there would be no real morals to live by or break, we could just pass off whatever we don't want in our lives.

5. You're asserting that 30+ years of trying to please God might not be sufficient time for God to make himself real to me.  The fact that I prayed, studied, taught Sunday school, ministered from the pulpit, tithed more than 10% of my income since childhood, enjoyed listening to sermons, counseled people, grieved over my sins, tried hard to live to the biblical standard, and refused to settle for anything less than a knowledge of the truth means nothing.

No I did not, I said that it takes a sincere heart and time, you said you were indoctrinated into Christianity and therefore you truly had no real belief. The fact you did those things you stated above, you were going through the motions. How could any of it been relevant to you if you were indoctrinated, by saying you were indoctrinated you're saying you never believed. Pretending will never get you an answer from God to the questions you have. All the prayer, all the teaching and counseling, all your Christian activities were for what? As I see it nothing, how could it be anything else, you by your own admission of indoctrination are saying you never really believed. Like I said going through the motions will get you nowhere with God, His work is serious and pretenders just want fit.

6. You're asserting that my non-belief is my fault because I did not seek God, study the scriptures, or allow God to reveal himself to me.  Read #5 again.

Your non-belief is your fault, who else is to responsible for your non-belief. I answered #5, you may think I'm being critical in the answer, that's not my intention, I'm only trying to lay out the truth, the truth is what you said you wanted to get at. 

7. I'm not really very good at science, but I'm pretty sure that dinosaur DNA survives because it's in fossils.  Do you know what a fossil is?  You're suggesting that the stuff science comes up with is puerile.  The only reason that a rational person would assert this is because those findings would seem to contradict their sacred book.  You're suggesting that I shouldn't trust something that there's mountains of evidence for, but yet it's silly not to accept something that there's no evidence for whatsoever.

No DNA can survive that long, period. Your statement reminds me of another fact, bone has been found in fossils and bone can't last that long either, these are science facts. I'm saying science is based from a false assumption to begin with, evolutionary science wants to preserve the science because the only other answer will be God. Evolution or God there is nothing else left, they are the only two options. Evolution brings nothing but death in the end, God promises eternal life with Him, remember "the things hoped for." Besides you are trusting in something you know little about, something that comes from fallible man. I personally trust the God I know, the omniscient One.  

8. Every assertion you make about me reveals how little you know about me.  Again, having come from religion, I understand this completely.  Every time someone makes a statement that opposes your worldview, you have to find a way to marginalize that person.  Either they were never a true Christian (seed that fell on stony ground) or they were a Christian who departed the faith because they loved "the world" too much (seed that fell among thorns).  Also, there's no such thing as agnostics or atheists.  They all believe deep down, but they're just in rebellion.

I have not tried to marginalize you, I'm trying to show you there are answers to your questions for God, are you sure He's not trying to reach out to you and let you know He has some answers for you through this conversation. This wouldn't be the first time God chose to use me to help another person.
Yes I believe that all atheist are in rebellion, but I also believe they believe their world view, I take them serious because they are detrimental to God's truth for other people, they will steal away the seed. Watch.
 

I'm going to give you  more credit than others around here.  I think you're probably a sincere believer, but you live in a bubble.  Having just emerged from that bubble myself, I understand you completely.

I thank you for the credit however, I do not live in a bubble I see the world as it is, I'm not one who put blinders on to keep out information, if I had I would not have been part of this forum for so many years. I actually find that the atheist here often retreat to a bubble. Sorry I want be able to get back with you for a few days i'm having surgery tomorrow on my hand.

GC

[MTL]

---

Well, when you think about it, I stuck myself in that pattern.  For years I'd repeat a mantra three or four times a day whenever the range was up about how anybody walking into a hostile city on foot might just as well make their funerary arrangements.  All day long, "you're dead, lay down..you're dead, lay down,.....you're dead, lay down".   Then you go out on a patrol or two and sure, you see the rewards for your work and feel validated in those propositions by your experiences.  

Thing is, I'd effectively convinced myself that all windows hid shooters, that there was a bomb in the canopy liner of every car.  That follows you into a scenario where it isn't remotely true...where it isn't even a good practical assumption.  Nevertheless, it's still there, always in the back of your mind.  So, I have this set of experiences, a reinforcing structure of ritual behavior.....and even the constant inner recitation of what a religious person might call a mantra or statement of faith with regards to those experiences.  Not only did I have a powerful experience..but if that experience had been divine in nature (or, more accurately, had been taken to be divine by myself) everything that arose out of it would be immediately recognizable as components of a religion.

However....nothing can convince the front of my mind that the shit the back of my mind worries about is actually true, that I'm actually in danger.....the position is intellectually indefensible.  OTOH, nothing can convince the front of my mind to ignore those things the back of my mind is whispering.  It's a sort of fugue state where something I act as though I take to be true is not, and is not taken to -be- true by myself......nor am I able to wash away those suspicions.

Long winded, but you'll be glad you stuck with me.  When I hear these stories about born again experiences....which by their very nature must produce some dissonance or inner conflict (or they wouldn't be seen to be miraculous in the first place)........I figure that they must have been even more powerful than my own experience described above...and that's pretty damned impressive.  You don't see a rock roll down a hill..like every other rock you've ever seen...and think "did you see what god just did, man!"  It's when you see the rock rolling up, that's when shit must get real.  So, what is it about those experiences which can overcome the sort of fugue state where you realize that the thing in the back of your mind is just your imagination, but still can't disabuse yourself of it?  I ask that because people with born again stories do not describe a fugue state, but a realization of what they perceive to be true knowledge from that moment forward.  

My own experience, visceral and in-arguably "real" in ways that no brush with the divine can be said to be - no matter how generously you choose to take their narratives...is less effective, less compelling than the experience of a person who sees christ in their toast and so drops to their knees shouting hosanna.  If there was ever a mystery to faith, imo...that's it, right there.  

(It's actually not that bad yall, no need to feel bad for me - I've long ago made my peace with the weird ass shit the back of my mind tries to fob off on the front of my mind, he's a godamned liar and I know better than to listen to him. Besides, it's gorgeous out here and the air doesn't taste like my neighbors toilet.  If you want to feel bad for somebody, there are joes I know who are crippled..positively crippled by a much stronger form of the same little ticks I have.  I can still function without mediation.  Feel bad for those who can't.)

---

I understand this.

I was raised in a devout Baptist home and was indoctrinated heavily from an early age,
and that circling inner dialogue you mentioned is indeed tenacious.

You characterized it as the front and back of your brain;

well, the front of my brain is Agnostic;
the back of my brain is the little girl, the indoctrinated Theist,
and, like you, my front brain isn't buying the crap the back of my brain is handing out, even for a second;
but the same old dialogue continues to eddy back and forth between them,
like dead leaves stubbornly caught in a whirlpool current,
unable to continue downstream.

[drfuzzy]

Seems like your group was missing it's ritualists.  Some conceptualize the pomp (and even the gods) as tools for focusing the self or eliminating anxiety.  Not saying you should dust off your athame or anything, just wondering what you thought about it from that POV?  Did you go from there to atheism...or was there another waystation?  

(sometimes I feel like MoMos -already- a triune terror)

Oh, the rituals were pleasant and the company was pleasant.  There were some bits with meditation that are quite useful.  I can still light some candles and play some tunes on my little lap harp and mellow out in druid-y fashion.  But the focus on spells and learning about the "old gods" - it's just not for me anymore.

During this time, I was always making extra money playing for Masses.  I still do, once a week.  After leaving the coven, I asked lots of questions of priests and other folks, as I described.  Listening to the weekly readings did not push me back into Christianity - they pushed me the rest of the way into Atheism.

Blessed be to you and your MoMo!

[MTL]

I think that the minimum required to be a christian would be affirmation of christ, wouldn't it?  God loves you..hell...that could be Krishna loving you.  Did you explore other faiths or go from christian to non directly?  Actually, that's something I'd love to know about anyone willing to share.  Whether there were any "alternative" faith periods between christianity and atheism..and what those were.

I never committed to any other religions, but I researched them a bit, and it helped me along my way to Agnosticism.

The total transition took about 20 years to become what I'd consider "complete".

My personal transition...if anyone wants to be bored by it:

---

I went through stages:

Somewhere between 13 and 15,
I first rebelled against going to church because the people there were hypocritical and judgmental,
but I wasn't sophisticated enough, yet, to really meet them in argument.
So I just acted-out, rebelled, was a typical teenager.

By age 20, I was openly scornful and dismissive of Christianity,
but didn't yet really understand the religions of the world.
I just knew there were 'other religions' but I was not yet interested in learning....only partying.
I wouldn't have been able to identify the differences between a Buddhist,
a Muslim, a Hindu, an Orthodox Jew, or a Sikh, for example.
(However I was briefly intrigued by Satanism and Wicca....being a goth chick).


By 25, I understood the fundamentals of the major world religions,
despised them for their evil,
and resolutely called myself an "Atheist" and declared scornfully, "God Doesn't Exist. Period."

By about 35,
I had figured out that the concept of "God" could exist independently from the concept of "Religion"
and basically learned the concept of Deism.
It was my "Eureka" moment.
I backed off of calling myself an "Atheist" (even though the term still technically applies)
preferring instead to call myself "Agnostic" and "Anti-Theist"
because I realized that this concept of Deism had the potential, IMO,
to "de-fang" the nasty side of Religion,
while demonstrating to Theists that it was both possible to hang onto their God,
and advisable to dispense with their Religion/Dogma.

Hence, I called myself Agnostic....allowing God may, or may not exist,
and promoting the idea of Deism amongst Theists
because I find Religion unacceptably noxious and malignant.

(I feel that when Theists are confronted with hardline Atheism
it is far more likely to just result in a stalemate).

---

There's a good quote about exploring other religions,
although, forgive me, I don't know who originally said it:

" Study only one Religion, and you're hooked for life.
But, study two or more Religions...and you're done in an hour. "

[Old Baby]

@ Old Baby, i didn't have to I know those questions existed long ago and they have been put away by many Christians, no need in me hashing out things already completed. I also want waste my time on someone who what make an effort to bring things to me one at a time, if he/she was interested some work would have been done to show so.

GC

But, that's not what I asked you.  I asked you if you went through all 673 of them.  Did you actually sit and scan through all 673 "contradictions" on that site to make sure there weren't any that maybe you haven't seen?

[robvalue]

Thank you for sharing Rhythm I'm glad to hear it's under control, it sounds like you're doing really well with it. I can understand somewhat, "my depression" as I refer to it is just like another voice in my head, telling me things that aren't true but making them sound seductive and trying to bypass my logic circuits.

[The Grand Nudger]

Blessed be to you and your MoMo!

-and to you and yours.

[Old Baby]

<removed massive wall of text>

- GC

1. I never said that I willfully deconstructed my faith.  That's a straw man.  Why did I bother explaining any of this to you if you're not going to read it?

2.  I never said that Truth made God or reality made God.  That's another straw man. 

3. Your arguments for why no man would want to believe in a god unless he knew it existed holds no water because Yahweh is only one out of like a thousand gods that people have at one time believed in.  They obviously DID NOT know those gods existed because they DO NOT exist.  Claiming to know something exists and living their lives as if it does exist is not evidence that this thing actually exists.

4. The "Why would any human being care about being moral if God doesn't exist?" argument has been debunked countless times.

5. What is your miracle that you've experienced?  You've stated numerous times that your experience isn't subjective but based on facts, so why haven't you brought those facts forward?  I can only speculate the reason is because they belong in the same class as just about every "miracle" I've ever witnessed in church, which is people giving God credit for coincidences.  I've also seen people's cancer go into remission after the church prayed.  Of course, I saw way more Christians die from cancer in spite of prayers.  Most Christians nowadays seem satisfied to make claims like "God healed me through doctors" or "God healed her by taking her on home to glory!"  

There was a minister who died a few years ago.  I had as much confidence in this man's zeal and sincerity as anyone I ever met in religion.  He was diagnosed with cancer.  He didn't understand it, but he believed it was God wanting to demonstrate his glory.  This man refused medical treatment and wasted away in his bedroom with thousands of people sending up prayers for him.  He fought and stayed brave until the end, proclaiming his imminent healing, and died a torturous death, leaving thousands of believers standing there in disbelief.  

6. You assert that I was going through the motions or "pretending" and that I never truly believed because I was indoctrinated.  That contradicts itself.  Aside from that, why do you even bother with this conversation if all you're going to do is question my sincerity?  Yes, it's true that deep down I had unbelief.  Did that make me any different than the average Christian?  Are you going to tell me that real Christians don't struggle with this?  The point is that I was sincere.  I repented for that unbelief and asked God to give me strength to be stronger in the faith. 

7. I find it ironic that you conclude science is the product of fallible man, but yet somehow the bible is definitely 100% a book written by God.  Your evidence for this is faith, which means that you really want it to be that way, which is good enough to make it "true".  Where do you get your science?  Ken Ham?

9. If this conversation is God giving me answers, then you have proved that he does not exist.

10. Why is failing to believe something anyone's fault?  You clearly do not understand what it means to actually believe something.  It's not a choice or an act of will.  That is called "faith".

[KevinM1]

@Old Baby:

Questioning the sincerity of atheists who used to believe is a pretty common tactic.  The No True Scotsman fallacy gives them a two-pronged attack:

1. They get to dismiss you as someone who doesn't understand something fundamental about their religion, which makes your explanations for leaving innately flawed in their eyes.

2. They hope to entice you into rejoining/trying it again due to the curiosity/fear they hope #1 generated in you.

I'd say 99% of what theists do is a smokescreen to distract from the innate illogic found in their religions.  Any rational arguments they provide are without evidence, and at most point to Deism and not a zombie Jew, which is, on a practical level, no different than atheism given the lack of concern from the watchmaker.

Personally, whenever Christians drone on and on about Jesus, I mentally make a Super Friends-esque cut with "Meanwhile, in the Hall of Justice China...."