pop morality

[Reforged]

No but I do need you to stop using the same laughing emote after three years. You should have the self-awareness to know how it makes you look by now. I deleted it and the insulting word salad that offered no information pertinent to our conversation. If you disagree about that decision I will welcome any valid justification for the presence of either. Otherwise; you're a grown man. Time to grow up. Pressing on.

Thank you for correcting me. I know I act like a dick sometimes and I apologize. I'm just very insecure and need constant positive reinforcement to correct my anti-social behavior. 

Does this mean you are also both right and wrong or are you one of the few lucky enough to be totally in the right? If so why do you have that special honor when there are many others who have "right/wrong" views who put in more time and study?

What 'it' means, is like everyone else.. I am right enough to stand before Christ, and be judged. Probably a little more critically because I have taken the mantel of teacher.

As far as being right or Wrong... All I can say is I left absolutely nothing on the table. I feel i have used everything these last 20+ years to come to the truth I now have, and i work just as hard if not harder look at what I know and crossing it with everything I have been provided. One of the indicators I believe I have that some others may not... I feel I can reconcile the whole bible. apply it in such away as to answer any question given and leave no contradiction. Or rather in my 4 or 5 years here I haven't come across a question or conflict I could not resolve. does that mean every answer is right? no. It just means a have a basic enough grasp of the bible to navigate it without conflicting error. (so far)

So we're *all* going to heaven?

we all no.. Only those in whom Christ judges a follower.. I don't have a copy of the lambs book of life, but I'm almost willing to bet the farm those who hate God in this life will not be on that list.

Of course theres an "unless" isn't there Drich. That would be unless we break the rules.

But again, for the follower of Christ their is no rules...
The rules are only to show you are not born a follower of Christ, and is only used to judge those who do not follow Christ.

The thing about the rules, Christian morality if you will, is every Christian has a different interpretation of them.

again, I point back to what Paul and Jesus said: We are Completely free from the law unless we can not handel said freedom, then we are free to bind ourselves any way we like, and God will hold us to it. (use the rules we create, to judge us.) that is one of the reason I am pointing out the pit falls of pop morality in and out of the church.
For example We say killing babies is wrong, and 'good people' such as yourself judge God as unjust/immoral for killing what maybe 20,000 babies ever???

Then in the same breath you 'good people' will defend abortion.

Really?!?!?
What is abortion if not killing babies? How many have we killed since Roe-v- wade? 1.5 Billion!

Now looking back at how Jesus Slammed hypocritical pharisees of his day... what do you think his reaction would be to modern day pharisees?

Even within the same denominations. Its almost universally agreed murder is wrong but even that has an unless attached to it by some people. 

which again has been apart of the plan since the start of the church.

Let me give you a basic example you can relate to because its based on your views; If a Christian homosexual honestly interpreted Sodom to mean rape was wrong rather than homosexuality is he going to hell? If he is thats important. Because it means ignorance is no excuse. 

This is all very easily reconciled with the parable of the talents..
are you familiar?
Brief over view:
Wealthy land owner puts 3 servants/slaves in charge of a portion of money 'talent'=years wage for most.
Each was given to his ability.
The first slave got 5 talents
the 2nd got 3 talents
The 3rd got 1 talent.

Now The first two both invested and doubled what they were given. the third buried his talent because he did not want to loose it.

The master returned and commended the first 2 and they were rewarded and the 3rd was punished for not working with what God gave him.

Why?
Because we are all responsible to what God has entrusted us to have. This means money, skill, time, and yes mental capacity/understanding of the bible.

Now to apply this to your sodom guy, if God has only seen fit to give him limited understanding of him and his theology while incomplete by some standards, If was used to the best of his ability, Christ will judge this man based on what was made available to him rather than some impossible church/man made standard/morality.

Again the gospel according to the bible transcends 'morality' or the rules. Even so if all we can understand is life or righteousness by the rules we make then it is to those rules we are held. "What ever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven and what ever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Meaning for a person who can only be catholic then investing all 5 talents means being all out catholic. The same is true for the methodist or fill in the blank... This means for your gay guy if he is 5 talents in, rocking his 'partners socks off and staying away from prostitutes' then that is the standard in which he will be judged.

Look how I answered your first question.. I instinctively gave you an answer that puts me in a position to have used all that God gave me to come up with and share this message. Why? Because that knowledge is what we are judged by, not some stupid standard some man who wheres a funny hat makes... unles again that standard is all you can reason.

However, make no mistake God is no fool, in Hebrews 4:12 we are told The word of God (The word is another name for Jesus, we see this in John 1:1) is like a double edged sword in that he cuts our nature down very cleanly and thinly making all of our hearts intentions and personal thoughts transparent and known, and it is to those inner thoughts we will be judged, not what we pretend to know/dont know.

You do get the relevance of that to the discussion, right? Because if thats the case from your standpoint alot of people have had their Jesus Christ get out of jail free card revoked and are on their way to one hell of a barbecue. 

Again What we bind on earth/What laws we make will be bound/laws we are judged by in Heaven. What we loose on earth/Freedom from said laws, will be loosed in Heaven, meaning will not be held against us.

So no. Not a strawman. Nothing you've said has contradicted what I deemed some of your views to be.

Really? what if I did not answer the questions the way you were so sure i had to answer?

 You may think other Christians are in the right to some degree but you have clearly demonstrated over the years that you think your interpretation is the most right.

Right is a word I am not able to use/judge.. Maybe a better word is complete. My interpretation is more complete/Better aligned with Scripture than alot of the atheist held views presented on this web site.

Thats important because obviously there has to be a line. A line where a Christian gets it more wrong than right. If thats possible what does that say about the communication skills of an omnipotent being?

Yes, I do like apples. I dislike mediocrity, stop trying to be insulting. You're not good at it.

I was about to say something pointless and unrelated but I thought better of it because I've decided to be an adult. I honestly think this might change my life for the better.

"Navigate without error"? If the answer isn't *right* isn't that an error in itself? Do you not see how telling it is that you have to make a distinction between "right" and how you interpret the Bible? There are tons of passages which anyone could interpret to justify various violent crimes yet by your description thats alright as long as the people using them do the best with the "talents" they're given. All thats required of a violent bastard to get into heaven is that hes the best kind of violent bastard and following Jesus. He just needs to put all his ability to work and he gets a place on the glass elevator.

Who says who can and can't handle that freedom? Who makes that judgement call if theres no rules and all bets are off? They were using the talents they had been given as best they could to move toward a result they considered right so Jesus would be obligated by your interpretation to let them into heaven. Again, the only distinction seems to be what they believe.

Please, killing an amoeba would be murder from your logic. A cluster of cells is only life in the simplest possible terms. What is is, what will be isn't yet. This is a distinction that seems lost on many people.
If I masturbate instead of getting a woman pregnant am I responsible for murder there? The whole discussion is silly. Besides, there are plenty of Christians who support abortion and according to you they're going to heaven. So its fine. 
By the way; if God were real he would be responsible for *way* more than 20000 dying. That was a silly thing to type. Especially considering the vast control over everything you attribute to him.
Moving back onto the original subject; from what you say all bets on morality are off. All that matters is that someone came to their conclusions on morality using the best of their ability then followed them to the letter. Oh and was Christian. Thats an important one. 
Do you not see how vacuous that conclusion makes Christianity morally? Its basically; "Hey, make your own damn mind up... and believe in Jesus! "

[loganonekenobi]

In the present.
We live in a society dependent on slaves.
We slaughter babies by the billions
We are in the middle of a holy war, that only chance of winning is genocide. (As we will never win hearts and minds.)

So my turn. tell me where your philosphy could work. If you say the present then first resolve the problems i presented.

so you are not really going to answer my question. all of that falls under catagory B) in that i only have so much power to change any of that. plus i do believe you are exagerating just a little with much of that. otherwise A) I would not have a choice on when and where to go on vacation or which job i get to do B)there would be no population and C) That's not a holly war its a war to help big business. Dont let them fool you bro.

i'm talking personal moral and you are talking cultural moral. Again i can only change myself.

I also dont think you understand what living in the present means. Might i suggest a study in Buddhism.

As for open minds I am more than willing to be a better person but from what i have seen atonement which is learned from religion does not make people better on the average. only the person can do that for themselves.

All you are doing is practicing how to argue instead of how to communicate. I know that this forum can train the theist to be that way but take the example of CL. you too can actually have a discussion if you choose.

[robvalue]

Drich has taken the pop morality from 2000 years ago, and just refuses to update it. Arbitrary!

So he's left being a slavery, genocide and rape apologist while claiming "moral superiority". All while trying to please a non-existent being. Religion is so fucking dangerous. Now, he probably knows somewhere inside him these things are actually wrong, but he has to push any such feeling down to keep in line with the dogma.

[downbeatplumb]

I'll post a question to you.  given the guide lines i just put up can you give me a situation where this simple plan would not work? remember to work in this time frame that we live in.

In the present.
We live in a society dependent on slaves.
We slaughter babies by the billions
We are in the middle of a holy war, that only chance of winning is genocide. (As we will never win hearts and minds.)

So my turn. tell me where your philosphy could work. If you say the present then first resolve the problems i presented.

You worry me.

[Drich]

"Navigate without error"? If the answer isn't *right* isn't that an error in itself?

But what if the test questions are not about right or wrong?
What if the 'test' is about giving yourself over, no matter what you understand or your circumstances?

Do you not see how telling it is that you have to make a distinction between "right" and how you interpret the Bible?

But again, remove Morality, remove the law and what is "right." Thats what atonement does. it removes the law as our means to righteousness. So we (christian) are no longer judged by the law, unless we in our freedom adopt the laws of a given religion in an effort to understand God. then we are bound to the rules we 'bind here on earth.'

There are tons of passages which anyone could interpret to justify various violent crimes yet by your description thats alright as long as the people using them do the best with the "talents" they're given. All thats required of a violent bastard to get into heaven is that hes the best kind of violent bastard and following Jesus. He just needs to put all his ability to work and he gets a place on the glass elevator.

the whole point to this thread is about showing how our current justifications 'pop morality' are really no different than the pop morality of Nazi Germany. What is different is how we market and sell our evil so that it is accepted. Now take a step back from that and look at the big picture, we will see this level of evil spread out through Human history. Nothing has changed only our justifications for the evil we are willing to adopt.

Now thankfully Christ will atone for said evil IF we we use everything we've been given to seek and develop a relationship with Him.

The only reason you can judge yourself better than other cultures or other generations is because you have been fooled into accepting the marketing that your current 'morality' is far superior, because you do not do the things others have done... But again if you look honestly at all of the things this soceity has accepted (slavery, infanticide, genocide) it's no different than those who did not hide their activities behind 'marketing.'

Who says who can and can't handle that freedom?

You can bearly phathom this concept, look at your questions.. Not being mean, but if you can't fully grasp what this freedom means how we got it and why, how do you expect to rightfully use this freedom? this freedom is not meant for you to do what you want, but it is God freeing you to do your best to worship and work for Him. To live for self means you have not accepted the atonement needed to be free.

Adopting a church is the first step. one many never move past, but again that's ok too. However once you adopt a church and your understanding of this freedom grows, and your exercise of this freedom becomes a stumbling block to others, or you find the rules and rituals prohibiting to your walk, then it is time to find a church that best suits your growing understanding.. Once you master the basics and have a strong relationship with God then it is time to teach/share.

Who makes that judgement call if theres no rules and all bets are off?

It's CHRISTanity so...Christ.

They were using the talents they had been given as best they could to move toward a result they considered right so Jesus would be obligated by your interpretation to let them into heaven. Again, the only distinction seems to be what they believe.

Yes, that's the point. With the first guy he was given a full share of say, knowledge of God and God's kingdom. So He uses his full share and turns a profit for God, meaning he used his knoweledge and was able to save a bunch of people. So he is rewarded, and given more (heaven)

Guy number two get a 2/3's share of knowledge because that is all he can handle and does the same, with a 2/3's share resulting in a proportional growth/profit. He did not make as much as the first guy dollar/saved soul wise, but he did indeed double what he was given as the first guy did.

Guy number three gets a 1/3 share, because he can't handle any more responsibility than that. So rather than do anything with his share he burys it, because he does not want to loose what he has been given.
This guy represents the guy born into a given religion, goes to church every sunday and does not grow or does not change, he just as a matter of routine follows tradition and a comfortable pattern. Or this is the not born in the church who has been given intrest in God to find out more, but never really does anything about it. accept argue on AF.com (so all of you d-bags are safe )

To which, Jesus says this guy is punished/hell for not doing anything with what he was given. If he simply took his one talent and took it to the next level he would have received the same reward as the other two.

So again it is not about meeting a certain standard or producing certain numbers or having a singular common understanding. It's about using what God has given you to it's fullest. that is why your homo/sodom=adultry buddy is judged righteous if indeed only gave him those tools to work with.

But also remember God is not a fool. there is a difference between being all in and flat wrong and going through the motions of being all in.

Please, killing an amoeba would be murder from your logic. A cluster of cells is only life in the simplest possible terms. What is is, what will be isn't yet. This is a distinction that seems lost on many people.
If I masturbate instead of getting a woman pregnant am I responsible for murder there? The whole discussion is silly. Besides, there are plenty of Christians who support abortion and according to you they're going to heaven. So its fine. 

Again I am not making a judgement here on what will be judged ok or not ok by christ.
I am pointing out, the hyprocrisy in creating a standard that says killing babies is wrong and then kill babies, by changing their classification. God will judge us with the very same standard we use to judge others. If you are all 'talents in' believe that killing babies is wrong and you say you can not follow a God who in the bible had babies Killed, you in turn will be judged by God using your own standard. He will show you that you supported a soceity that killed billions of babies hundreds of millions in the 3rd trimester...

If you think a baby in the third trimester is a clump of cells then go to youtube and do a search on partial birth abortion. that is where they give birth, feet first till the base of the skull is exposed insert scissors and suck out the baby's brain collapsing the head.. I posted some of these pics here before and was told to 'hide them' because they were so brutally graphic. These were viable children. they could have lived outside the womb.
These pictures were very disturbing because anyone with sight could see these were BABIES and not a clump of cells, which is why i was told to hide them.

But, again this is not an abortion debate, this is an example of how God will take your 'morality' and judge this generation by it, because you all are that 1 talent guy who's full understanding of right/wrong is 'morality' and you will not move past it, even though now you all have been made aware. so then it is by this standard in which you will be judged. And if I can point out big time hypocrisy laying right on top, how much harder will it be when an all knowing God scrutinizes your 'morality?'

That is why, it is much better to accept the atonement offered, than to pretend that your 'morality' means anything. In one or two generations even our grand children will judge us 'immoral' by the standards we use today. How then do we expect to use this standard to deem ourselves 'good people?'

By the way; if God were real he would be responsible for *way* more than 20000 dying. That was a silly thing to type. Especially considering the vast control over everything you attribute to him.

So how many babies do you think he has order the death of?

Moving back onto the original subject; from what you say all bets on morality are off. All that matters is that someone came to their conclusions on morality using the best of their ability then followed them to the letter.

Which is why we have so many different denominations...
Again We are Free to worship any way we can comprehend. For some that means being catholic, for others baptist, for others still it means being non denominational, and for others still it means being something that most 'christians' would not identify as Christian at all. But, Again 'we' are not in a position to say who is and who is not Christian. Our rituals works and/or understanding of the gospel is not what saves us. It is Christ who saves and Christ alone who judges who is and is not 'saved.' We are not saved by our little cermonies or chants. we are saved by Christ alone, not unto our works lest any of us should boast (about being the true form of christianity.)

Oh and was Christian. Thats an important one. 
Do you not see how vacuous that conclusion makes Christianity morally? Its basically; "Hey, make your own damn mind up... and believe in Jesus! "

Needs work, but more or less.

[Drich]

He literally ignored everything I said.  Tactical move on his part, actually.

What is their to respond to?

I exposed your ignorance to a culture's very own definition and understanding of a given societal rule in their very own culture. A rule and it's explanation that has stood for almost 2000 years.

Yet you challenge that rule and are making the claim this culture who has up held and past this rule down for 2000 years is some how wrong, and some douche who has not studied theology, this culture or even this passage is right citing nothing more than how he reads a singular specific translation.

What is their to respond to?

You've lost, you been out maneuvered and been caught off gaurd. what's more your either too stupid or stuborn to admitted you've been bested by someone with far superior source material are better reasoning than the 'nut-uh' you keep pointing back to..

I left the ball in your court in my last effort, and spelled out that you must over turn a 2000 year old traditional reading of this law, in order to challenge my position. you have failed to do that.

 so again what is their for me to respond to?

All you efforts now are personal. I've shown you to be a fool and now you are looking to claim victory even if it is through logical fallacy and an attempt to get the last word.

If the last word is what you want then make it a good one. I unlike most of you am not looking to completely break the oppositions spirit. if you need to have the last word to keep future dialog open then please write what ever you want. You can even pretend that I won't even read what you have to say, so their is no need to hold back

[Drich]

In the present.
We live in a society dependent on slaves.
We slaughter babies by the billions
We are in the middle of a holy war, that only chance of winning is genocide. (As we will never win hearts and minds.)

So my turn. tell me where your philosphy could work. If you say the present then first resolve the problems i presented.

You worry me.

how so? because I am willing to think for my self? because i will not yeild to the sugar coating the world puts on things? Because i am willing to call a spade a spade?

What worries me are sheep who toe the soceital line with out question. "I Vas Jost Fowlling Or-ders Mine fure"

[The Grand Nudger]

Is that what you call all of this, thinking for yourself? I thought you were telling us about "god" and his baggage? If it's the former what use are you, and if it's the latter why should anyone care?

[downbeatplumb]

You worry me.

how so? because I am willing to think for my self? because i will not yeild to the sugar coating the world puts on things? Because i am willing to call a spade a spade?

What worries me are sheep who toe the soceital line with out question. "I Vas Jost Fowlling Or-ders Mine fure"

You were advocating a war of genocide, presumably against muslims. And the last western power to commit genocide were the ones "just following orders" so you have it arse about face.

[Nihilist Virus]

He literally ignored everything I said.  Tactical move on his part, actually.

What is their to respond to?

I exposed your ignorance to a culture's very own definition and understanding of a given societal rule in their very own culture. A rule and it's explanation that has stood for almost 2000 years.

Yet you challenge that rule and are making the claim this culture who has up held and past this rule down for 2000 years is some how wrong, and some douche who has not studied theology, this culture or even this passage is right citing nothing more than how he reads a singular specific translation.

What is their to respond to?

You've lost, you been out maneuvered and been caught off gaurd. what's more your either too stupid or stuborn to admitted you've been bested by someone with far superior source material are better reasoning than the 'nut-uh' you keep pointing back to..

I left the ball in your court in my last effort, and spelled out that you must over turn a 2000 year old traditional reading of this law, in order to challenge my position. you have failed to do that.

 so again what is their for me to respond to?

All you efforts now are personal. I've shown you to be a fool and now you are looking to claim victory even if it is through logical fallacy and an attempt to get the last word.

If the last word is what you want then make it a good one. I unlike most of you am not looking to completely  break the oppositions spirit. if you need to have the last word to keep future dialog open then please write what ever you want. You can even pretend that I won't even read what you have to say, so their is no need to hold back

What is their to respond to?

I exposed your ignorance to a culture's very own definition and understanding of a given societal rule in their very own culture. A rule and it's explanation that has stood for almost 2000 years.



How about the part where you said,

Who are you to tell the Jews they are not reading their bibles correctly?

And I replied, 

LOL.

Yeah, Jesus CLEARLY satisfies the "prophecies" about the messiah.  Therefore a Jewish scholar will obviously accept him as the messiah, right? Oh wait, it's YOU who is telling the Jews they're not reading the Bible properly. 



Dumbass.




what's more your either too stupid or stuborn to admitted...