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RE: The problem with prayer.
July 24, 2016 at 8:54 pm
(This post was last modified: July 24, 2016 at 8:55 pm by robvalue.)
I can call Lord of the Rings "scripture". It doesn't make it any more real. I hate that word. The bible is a collection of fucking stories. With words in them. Like any other story, it can contain elements of truth throughout but need not be either entirely accurate nor entirely inaccurate.
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RE: The problem with prayer.
July 24, 2016 at 9:30 pm
(July 24, 2016 at 8:54 pm)robvalue Wrote: I can call Lord of the Rings "scripture". It doesn't make it any more real.
Man's propensity for comfort is his main problem. He needs it too much.
He needs it to the extent that he accepts fiction.
Not everyone can just be happy with the facts, sadly.
Life ends.
The theist finds comfort in a false hope that there is an existence after life.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
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RE: The problem with prayer.
July 24, 2016 at 9:45 pm
(July 20, 2016 at 9:52 am)Gawdzilla Wrote: The Bible says something about "if you pray sincerely your prayer will be answered" or some such.
So, why has no "good and true Christian" ever prayed for an end to war, hunger, disease, or atheism?
Actually, I would imagine Christians have prayed for an end to many wars .... and their "God" has generously answered one sides prayers and worked in mysterious ways for the other side .... 
Religion is the top shelf of the supernatural supermarket ... Madog
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RE: The problem with prayer.
July 24, 2016 at 10:54 pm
They don't believe that something can come from nothind but are more too happy to extrapolate something from nothing! Like quoting the lost bible verses.
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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RE: The problem with prayer.
July 25, 2016 at 7:03 am
...and they often go on to claim God made something come from nothing. But when the answer is "magic" you've given up the ghost already.
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RE: The problem with prayer.
July 25, 2016 at 8:17 am
(July 24, 2016 at 3:45 pm)Stimbo Wrote: So why are scriptures brought up at all? I'm not under the impression that the bible is a "treatise on metaphysics", remember; none of this is my claim. I'm questioning the proposal that scriptures contain this kind of information.
Asuming that reality is intelligible and reason is effective is one thing, but that's not the part under examination. It's the "general revelation" part. Let's posit a person coming to this for the first time, with no prior conceptions or anyone interpreting meaning and telling him what to believe - what about the bible, general revelation and the classical "God" can possibly lead to the conclusion that reality existed before time began?
I don't know whether time began or always was. Either way the conclusion is that God is eternally present. It starts with the recognition that there is something rather than nothing. Next is the observation that some things that exist could possibly not exist. If it was possible for all things to not exist then it could be that they could all simultaneously not exist. Then there would be nothing. Nothing comes from nothing so if at any prior moment there was nothing then nothing now would be. Therefore there must be something that is both necessary and capable of sustaining everything else, I.e. a necessary being.
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RE: The problem with prayer.
July 25, 2016 at 8:43 am
Nothing comes from nothing...
Okay, two points spring immediately to mind, and I have a third which I'll tack on as a general observation afterwards.
1 On the quantum level, nothing from nothing isn't an accurate description of reality
2 Assuming you are right, how did your classical "God" manage it - both for itself and for the Universe?
Finally
3 What part(s) of the scriptural text lead inevitably to that conclusion to the exclusion of any other?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: The problem with prayer.
July 25, 2016 at 8:54 am
(July 25, 2016 at 8:17 am)ChadWooters Wrote: I don't know whether time began or always was. Either way the conclusion is that God is eternally present. It starts with the recognition that there is something rather than nothing. Next is the observation that some things that exist could possibly not exist. If it was possible for all things to not exist then it could be that they could all simultaneously not exist. Then there would be nothing. Nothing comes from nothing so if at any prior moment there was nothing then nothing now would be. Therefore there must be something that is both necessary and capable of sustaining everything else, I.e. a necessary being. To be clear, you do not subscribe to the notion of creation ex nihilo, then?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The problem with prayer.
July 25, 2016 at 9:41 am
(July 25, 2016 at 8:54 am)Rhythm Wrote: To be clear, you do not subscribe to the notion of creation ex nihilo, then? That's the part that always gets vague and wobbly with some theists.
It appears either God created the universe *from* nothing, which means something can come from nothing.
Or he created it from "stuff", which then leads to "Where did *that* stuff come from?", etc.
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RE: The problem with prayer.
July 25, 2016 at 10:07 am
(July 20, 2016 at 9:52 am)Gawdzilla Wrote: The Bible says something about "if you pray sincerely your prayer will be answered" or some such.
So, why has no "good and true Christian" ever prayed for an end to war, hunger, disease, or atheism?
You are confusing petitioning for prayer.
When we petition we ask for what we want.
When we Pray we ask for what God wants for us.
God will always give us what he wants for us if we simply ask for it.
This however does not mean He will always give us what we want.
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