The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.

[Mystic]

There is a verse it says "Nay, regarding our proofs they (singular) were stubborn".

There is so much conditions. It's not just enough that the person knows the truth and doesn't believe, because it might take time to sink in. They have to be vehemently stubborn to the truth.

And really Quran shows it's out of pure envy towards God's chosen ones, they realize the station they have but still oppose out of hate and stubbornness. 

The proof also during the time of the Messenger and towards his people was a much higher manifest state.

We can't just say well they were declared disbelievers so we declare all non-Muslims disbelievers. That's crazy talk.

[The Grand Nudger]

I can assure you that I want nothing that muslims have. Hate? Hate implies a level of emotional investment entirely absent in me. Stubbornness implies that it takes effort, that I have to try. I don't.

[Mystic]

I can assure you that I want nothing that muslims have.

Well you may have reasons and you need clarification.

[Brian37]

Disbeliever from Islamic standpoint is one who is doomed to hell forever if he dies in that state.

But disbelief in what? Some people like to put "when the message of Islam is presented to them and they reject", but that to me is silly.

There is many verses that show the context is when the message and proofs have been understood and people have sight of them but turn away.

Of course the true message of Islam would have proofs offered that cannot be rejected.

But in the dark times, where is Islamic message presented properly and what proofs are presented to the extent it leaves no one doubting?

I refuse to call anyone disbeliever for good reasons.

MK being condemned to a fictional hell that does not exist, is not a patent owned by Muslims. Christians threaten us with their fictional hell too. It is nonsense no matter who threatens us.

I am an atheist, if you choose to call me a "disbeliever" I am fine with that too. If you want to fool yourself that it is a slur, or that the label is something requiring you to take "pity" on me, forget it.

I am not worried one bit about what my life will be like 5 billion years from now. YOU however, SHOULD worry about wasting your limited time while you are alive on the claims of antiquity. 

Ok you won't call me a "disbeliever" fine. I' will say it for you. "I am a disbeliever".

Looky that, I am still here, and so are you. 

MK you wont get cooties if you figure out you got it wrong.

[WinterHold]

Hey; it might not work with you but it works on others. There is a huge wing in the Muslim world now -both Sunni and Shiite- that "never calls non-believers with what they are: non-believers" because they might "get them angry", or "fail to convert them".

So it might work on others.

If you call me a non-believer, or atheist, that is my position, so why would it offend me? If you say it like a slur, as some Christians do as well, sure, it offends me too. Not because I haven't heard ignorant theists try to make me look bad, but it offends me because their logic sucks.

I've been an atheist since 01. If I had a nickle for every theist, you pick the label, that looked at me like I was a piece of scum, I would make Bill Gates look like a street wino.

If a Christian or Muslim or Jew wants to call me a "Non believer" wants to call me that they can. But if they think it is a word to slur me, or if not that, a word to take "pity" on me, your right, neither will work, because to us, it isn't about anything but evidence.

I don't care if you call me an atheist or non believer. That is what I am. I do care if someone uses that word as if I should be ashamed of it. Or use it like I am a lost puppy for them to save.

Non-Muslims are not subject to Islamic sentences; that kind of division creates a crack as I believe between the two sides: forgetting the verses that state a different approach towards non-believers who don't fight Muslims; like this verse:

Sura 60, The Quran:
( 7 )   Perhaps Allah will put, between you and those to whom you have been enemies among them, affection. And Allah is competent, and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
( 8 )   Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
( 9 )   Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

So what you're seeing is the same that happens against black people in a white society, or immigrants in a new society. The Quran orders with the above; so if people go against it, it is something else that make them go against it.

---

Hey; it might not work with you but it works on others. There is a huge wing in the Muslim world now -both Sunni and Shiite- that "never calls non-believers with what they are: non-believers" because they might "get them angry", or "fail to convert them".

That seems silly, though it does explain the deeply confused look on some peoples faces when they implored me to not do x in the name of god.  

So it might work on others.

Our society also produces feckless weaklings who lack the unfailing clarity of purpose behind these steely grays...obviously I don't come from that caste.  How could I explain to Mystic, within your shared ideology, who he;s talking to?  I'm seeking your expertise in this matter so that he and I can finally reach a mutual understanding even though we can never reach agreement.  

Suggest-a-sura?

Actually; I think I made a huge mistake.
Me and him don't share the same faith.

[The Grand Nudger]

Well you may have reasons and you need clarification.

I have plenty of the former, and need none of the latter.

---

Actually; I think I made a huge mistake.
Me and him don't share the same faith.

I strongly suspect the same..but you do share a magic book, and I've been unable to communicate with him thusfar.  You can't think of anything in the quran to bridge this gap..not between the two of you..but between he and I?  

.....anything....... 

This is usually your soapbox. I am disappoint.

[Brian37]

If you call me a non-believer, or atheist, that is my position, so why would it offend me? If you say it like a slur, as some Christians do as well, sure, it offends me too. Not because I haven't heard ignorant theists try to make me look bad, but it offends me because their logic sucks.

I've been an atheist since 01. If I had a nickle for every theist, you pick the label, that looked at me like I was a piece of scum, I would make Bill Gates look like a street wino.

If a Christian or Muslim or Jew wants to call me a "Non believer" wants to call me that they can. But if they think it is a word to slur me, or if not that, a word to take "pity" on me, your right, neither will work, because to us, it isn't about anything but evidence.

I don't care if you call me an atheist or non believer. That is what I am. I do care if someone uses that word as if I should be ashamed of it. Or use it like I am a lost puppy for them to save.

Non-Muslims are not subject to Islamic sentences; that kind of division creates a crack as I believe between the two sides: forgetting the verses that state a different approach towards non-believers who don't fight Muslims; like this verse:

Sura 60, The Quran:
( 7 )   Perhaps Allah will put, between you and those to whom you have been enemies among them, affection. And Allah is competent, and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
( 8 )   Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
( 9 )   Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

So what you're seeing is the same that happens against black people in a white society, or immigrants in a new society. The Quran orders with the above; so if people go against it, it is something else that make them go against it.

---

That seems silly, though it does explain the deeply confused look on some peoples faces when they implored me to not do x in the name of god.  

Our society also produces feckless weaklings who lack the unfailing clarity of purpose behind these steely grays...obviously I don't come from that caste.  How could I explain to Mystic, within your shared ideology, who he;s talking to?  I'm seeking your expertise in this matter so that he and I can finally reach a mutual understanding even though we can never reach agreement.  

Suggest-a-sura?

Actually; I think I made a huge mistake.
Me and him don't share the same faith.

Of course you don't. Just like you cant get a black Baptist and an evangelical white Baptist to agree on the correct "faith". Just like you wont get a Tibet Buddhist and a Chinese Buddhist and a Japanese Shinto Buddhist to agree. And despite what some Muslims might think, not all Jews agree 100% of the time.

Atheists are no different. If you think I agree with all atheists 100% of the time just on label, you'd be wrong. 

But there is one big difference between the religious, and atheists. We don't see our position as a "faith" or a club or a loyalty oath.

Of course you and MK don't agree. And that is what makes "faith" a horrible way to conduct political diplomacy.

[WinterHold]

Disbeliever from Islamic standpoint is one who is doomed to hell forever if he dies in that state.

But disbelief in what? Some people like to put "when the message of Islam is presented to them and they reject", but that to me is silly.

There is many verses that show the context is when the message and proofs have been understood and people have sight of them but turn away.

Of course the true message of Islam would have proofs offered that cannot be rejected.

But in the dark times, where is Islamic message presented properly and what proofs are presented to the extent it leaves no one doubting?

I refuse to call anyone disbeliever for good reasons.

You mean in "Shiite Twelver" standpoint; not Islamic.

A disbeliever is:

Sura 5, The Quran:
( 17 )   They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.

So Catholics are on the top of the list.

Also:

Sura 2, The Quran:
( 39 )   And those who disbelieve and deny Our signs - those will be companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally."

So those who disbelieve in the Quran are also disbelievers.

Also:

Sura 4, The Quran:
( 46 )   Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And if they had said [instead], "We hear and obey" and "Wait for us [to understand]," it would have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.

And among the Jews.

So; your point of view is not Islam; I'm sorry.

[Mystic]

*yawn*

[WinterHold]

Non-Muslims are not subject to Islamic sentences; that kind of division creates a crack as I believe between the two sides: forgetting the verses that state a different approach towards non-believers who don't fight Muslims; like this verse:



So what you're seeing is the same that happens against black people in a white society, or immigrants in a new society. The Quran orders with the above; so if people go against it, it is something else that make them go against it.

---

Actually; I think I made a huge mistake.
Me and him don't share the same faith.

Of course you don't. Just like you cant get a black Baptist and an evangelical white Baptist to agree on the correct "faith". Just like you wont get a Tibet Buddhist and a Chinese Buddhist and a Japanese Shinto Buddhist to agree. And despite what some Muslims might think, not all Jews agree 100% of the time.

Atheists are no different. If you think I agree with all atheists 100% of the time just on label, you'd be wrong. 

But there is one big difference between the religious, and atheists. We don't see our position as a "faith" or a club or a loyalty oath.

Of course you and MK don't agree. And that is what makes "faith" a horrible way to conduct political diplomacy.

Ah; the right faith does work wonders in diplomacy. At least it adds morals to politics.
I don't agree with the OP because I didn't sell my soul yet.

---

*yawn*

If you yawn; then why are you opening this topic again?
This is a discussion forum; troll xD so act like it.