Theists: Hitchens Wager

[Edwardo Piet]

LOL so if I started believing in God I'd get magic powers? Great! Where do I sign up? Where's the nearest mosque? I wanna shoot laser beams outta my eyes, lol.

You get magic powers, if you remain patient, even more so yes.  If you ask forgiveness from God, you get immense power increase from God.

Will it allow me to magically make beautiful naked women appear in my bedroom that all want to have sex with me?

I HAVE NOW CONVERTED TO ISLAM.



^ Is what an idiot would say.

[Mystic]

Cause he's jealous of God's grace on him, I don't know, or maybe too smart to need be guided by God. One or the other.

You have not addressed the central question!

They can't bring about world peace or justice to the world.

They can't enjoin the truth and unite humanity on love.

Etc... 

Believers can but only if they find the true guidance of God by sincerity to God, which they have not so far.

[Edwardo Piet]

Cause he's jealous of God's grace on him, I don't know, or maybe too smart to need be guided by God. One or the other.

Dude, it's not possible to be jealous of someone you don't believe exists.

[Mystic]

^ Is what an idiot would say.

Must be, you said it. 

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Cause he's jealous of God's grace on him, I don't know, or maybe too smart to need be guided by God. One or the other.

Dude, it's not possible to be jealous of someone you don't believe exists.

Not true.

[chimp3]

So! List a moral statement made by a believer that a non-believer can not state!

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Why could not an atheist be gullible enough to obey?

Cause he's jealous of God's grace on him, I don't know, or maybe too smart to need be guided by God. One or the other.

I can not remember if MK has ever pulled the "Stalin/Hitler was an Atheist" ploy?

[Edwardo Piet]

You have not addressed the central question!

They can't bring about world peace or justice to the world.

They can't enjoin the truth and unite humanity on love.

Etc... 

Believers can but only if they find the true guidance of God by sincerity to God, which they have not so far.

This is all just baseless assertions on your part, of course.

---

Dude, it's not possible to be jealous of someone you don't believe exists.

Not true.

Well, please explain to me how that works then lol. How many non-existent people have you been jealous of? Haven't you got better things to do? Lol.

[chimp3]

You have not addressed the central question!

They can't bring about world peace or justice to the world.

They can't enjoin the truth and unite humanity on love.

Etc... 

Believers can but only if they find the true guidance of God by sincerity to God, which they have not so far.

Shiites can certainly leave a trail of red herrings!

[Edwardo Piet]

Cause he's jealous of God's grace on him, I don't know, or maybe too smart to need be guided by God. One or the other.

I can not remember if MK has ever pulled the "Stalin/Hitler was an Atheist" ploy?

TBH I think a fallacy of that sophistication is actually beyond his intellectual capacity lol.

[The Grand Nudger]

I am confused! However, if a freethinker would fight and die for the rights of others to believe.....

Yeah, I think they can, I think that a believer can too..but, what I'm wondering (as an solution to the puzzle of the question, in any case) is whether or not in some circumstance explicitly religious martyrdom could actually be a moral act.  

No! As an example, I do not believe people should be punished for hate crimes. Murder is murder. Because a murderer killed for greed or power rather than bigotry does not mean the victim/ family does not deserve equal justice! 

Okay, I guess there's there's alot to unpack in that one, but...I think the next bit is probably the bit that I;d look to challenge if I were trying to answer the question.  

Maryrdom is a motivation not an action!

That seems like a fine line to draw.  Sure, though, if we rule out that sort of martyrdom as an action then it couldn't be an action that theists were capable of that atheists weren't.  Though, honestly, it is an answer to that question..as expressed in the punchline to hitchens wager, as related by hitchens himself.  -Now imagine some terrible act that only a believer could do.

In suggesting the obvious counterfactual, I'm asking you to consider whether or not some instance of that punchline set, so quick, so easy to think of (in hitchens estimation) might have been misclassifed as immorality when it was, in fact, moral?

If that is the case, those terrible acts limited to believers are already asserted as being uniquely in the possession of the faithful. Misclassification has the potential to make at least one of those uniquely possessed acts moral.

[chimp3]

I am confused! However, if a freethinker would fight and die for the rights of others to believe.....

Yeah, I think they can, I think that a believer can too..but, what I'm wondering (as an solution to the puzzle of the question, in any case) is whether or not in some circumstance explicitly religious martyrdom could actually be a moral act.  

No! As an example, I do not believe people should be punished for hate crimes. Murder is murder. Because a murderer killed for greed or power rather than bigotry does not mean the victim/ family does not deserve equal justice! 

Okay, I guess there's there's alot to unpack in that one, but...I think the next bit is probably the bit that I;d look to challenge if I were trying to answer the question.  

Maryrdom is a motivation not an action!

That seems like a fine line to draw.  Sure, though, if we rule out that sort of martyrdom as an action then it couldn't be an action that theists were capable of that atheists weren't.  Though, honestly, it is an answer to that question..as expressed in the punchline to hitchens wager, as related by hitchens himself.  -Now imagine some terrible act that only a believer could do.

In suggesting the obvious counterfactual, I'm asking you to consider whether or not some instance of that punchline set, so quick, so easy to think of (in hitchens estimation) might have been misclassifed as immorality when it was, in fact, moral?

If that is the case, those terrible acts limited to believers are already asserted as being uniquely in the possession of the faithful.  Misclassification has the potential to make at least one of those uniquely possessed acts moral.

I never limited anything to believers!