The Lie Known as "Salvation"

[julep]

If you need the idea of a god to feel happy, I'm sorry that's the case, but go for it.  I don't think that your interpretation fits with the actual texts, but since it's all fictional, what does it matter?  Your god sounds like one of those creepy MLM front-men...follow these simple steps and soon you'll have the vacation homes and private jets.  Appeal to greed and the desire to get good stuff without earning it: it's an effective con, sure.   

Doesn't incline me to believe, trust, or sell the vitamins.

[LadyForCamus]

Post-reform religitards speak of "salvation" as if it is the most important thing complete with a "Gospel". However, as one who can actually read the autographed languages of the bible, no such thing exists!

well I guess you can't read the text in question as well as you think you can, or your not educated enough to provide the supporting evidence that makes a wild claim plausible. The first thing an intellectually honest person does when making a claim like this is to provide source material from a liget well known source primary or secondary source. So fa you provide smoke and mirrors with a claim to read a dead language as if it were pig latin.

The Word of God was not given us to achieve "salvation". Rather, it is a gift of God that we might have life, right here, right now, and that more abundant. That is deliverance and not "salvation".

Book chapter and verse please.
the whole of John 3 would be the words of Christ directly contradicting what you have said here.

The English word "salvation" is a borrowed French word transliterated from the Latin salvationem. IOW's, sOtEria is not translated and it meaning has been lost and reinvented.

The etymology of the english word here is moot sport. as Pointed out by By Jesus Himself in John 3 as the whole chapter speaks to the spiritual salvation/being saved from Hell/second death and be given eternal life. it does not matter what the french word is what is being described in the Koine greek is a process of being born of the Holy Spirit to escape Judgement and the death of the Soul in Hell to go onto eternal life. So whether the word you choose is salvation or deliverance or cubblesvagon the process being described in the Gospel of Christ is a process we deem salvation because it saves us from the destruction of Hell.

The word translated as "salvation" is sOtEria and means: deliverance and is very general and non-specific: preservation, deliverance, rescue, kept safe and sound, made whole, etc. IOW's, what ever is necessary for the moment

Actually t means:
σωτηρία
Transliteration
sōtēria
Pronunciation
sō-tā-rē'-ä (Key)
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Feminine of a derivative of σωτήρ (G4990) as (properly, abstract) noun
Textus Receptus Occurrences — 45x in 3 unique form(s)
σωτηρία — 8x
σωτηρίαν — 17x
σωτηρίας — 20x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 7:965,1132

KJV Translation Count — Total: 45x
The KJV translates Strong's G4991 in the following manner: salvation (40x), the (one) be saved (1x), deliver (with G1325) (1x), health (1x), saving (1x), that (one) be saved (with G1519) (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation

deliverance from the molestation of enemies

in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the soul's safety or salvation

of Messianic salvation

salvation as the present possession of all true Christians

future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...4991&t=KJV

God also informs us that He want's us to have peace which is the Greek word eirEnE and literally means: the absents of strife. However, when strife happens, deliverance will follow. So, it is a matter of trust and not a belief system. 

εἰρήνη
Transliteration
eirēnē
Pronunciation
ā-rā'-nā (Key)
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Probably from a primary verb eiro (to join)
Textus Receptus Occurrences — 92x in 6 unique form(s)
Εἰρήνη — 8x
εἰρήνη — 32x
εἰρήνῃ — 8x
Εἰρήνην — 2x
εἰρήνην — 23x
εἰρήνης — 19x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 2:400,207

KJV Translation Count — Total: 92x
The KJV translates Strong's G1515 in the following manner: peace (89x), one (1x), rest (1x), quietness (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
a state of national tranquillity

exemption from the rage and havoc of war

peace between individuals, i.e. harmony, concord

security, safety, prosperity, felicity, (because peace and harmony make and keep things safe and prosperous)

of the Messiah's peace

the way that leads to peace (salvation)

of Christianity, the tranquil state of a soul assured of its salvation through Christ, and so fearing nothing from God and content with its earthly lot, of whatsoever sort that is

the blessed state of devout and upright men after death

As you can see the Koine' word for peace is a lttle more coplex than you would have us to believe..

Can you see how you have to cherry pick a defination out of this grou of definations to make your narritive valid? can you not see that there is room for your interpretation and how the word peace is used is a more broad biblical sense?

That pretty much sums up my anecdotal life. Dude! I'm not "lucky"!


So that is my evidence that God truly exists--YOUR LIFE!

If you don't like your life: then do something different!

God promised you, in the pages of the bible, life, and that more abundant even beyond your wildest dreams!


I would not tell you this if I hadn't experienced it for myself!

From one who has truly experienced a more abundant life I know it is not free. this life more abundant is liken to the life of Joseph who still was a slave under pharaoh, than the freedom to do as you will. i have more than I could ever hope to have asked for, but these 'things' are not trophies but responsibilities I must use and invest in.

I do hope you an come up with some actual scripture to back your position and maybe a few references rather than putting us in a position to simply take your word.

Yay!  Pigeon chess!

[Haipule]

Post-reform religitards speak of "salvation" as if it is the most important thing complete with a "Gospel". However, as one who can actually read the autographed languages of the bible, no such thing exists!

well I guess you can't read the text in question as well as you think you can, or your not educated enough to provide the supporting evidence that makes a wild claim plausible. The first thing an intellectually honest person does when making a claim like this is to provide source material from a liget well known source primary or secondary source. So fa you provide smoke and mirrors with a claim to read a dead language as if it were pig latin.

The Word of God was not given us to achieve "salvation". Rather, it is a gift of God that we might have life, right here, right now, and that more abundant. That is deliverance and not "salvation".

Book chapter and verse please.
the whole of John 3 would be the words of Christ directly contradicting what you have said here.

The English word "salvation" is a borrowed French word transliterated from the Latin salvationem. IOW's, sOtEria is not translated and it meaning has been lost and reinvented.

The etymology of the english word here is moot sport. as Pointed out by By Jesus Himself in John 3 as the whole chapter speaks to the spiritual salvation/being saved from Hell/second death and be given eternal life. it does not matter what the french word is what is being described in the Koine greek is a process of being born of the Holy Spirit to escape Judgement and the death of the Soul in Hell to go onto eternal life. So whether the word you choose is salvation or deliverance or cubblesvagon the process being described in the Gospel of Christ is a process we deem salvation because it saves us from the destruction of Hell.

The word translated as "salvation" is sOtEria and means: deliverance and is very general and non-specific: preservation, deliverance, rescue, kept safe and sound, made whole, etc. IOW's, what ever is necessary for the moment

Actually t means:
σωτηρία
Transliteration
sōtēria
Pronunciation
sō-tā-rē'-ä (Key)
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Feminine of a derivative of σωτήρ (G4990) as (properly, abstract) noun
Textus Receptus Occurrences — 45x in 3 unique form(s)
σωτηρία — 8x
σωτηρίαν — 17x
σωτηρίας — 20x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 7:965,1132

KJV Translation Count — Total: 45x
The KJV translates Strong's G4991 in the following manner: salvation (40x), the (one) be saved (1x), deliver (with G1325) (1x), health (1x), saving (1x), that (one) be saved (with G1519) (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation

deliverance from the molestation of enemies

in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the soul's safety or salvation

of Messianic salvation

salvation as the present possession of all true Christians

future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...4991&t=KJV

God also informs us that He want's us to have peace which is the Greek word eirEnE and literally means: the absents of strife. However, when strife happens, deliverance will follow. So, it is a matter of trust and not a belief system. 

εἰρήνη
Transliteration
eirēnē
Pronunciation
ā-rā'-nā (Key)
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Probably from a primary verb eiro (to join)
Textus Receptus Occurrences — 92x in 6 unique form(s)
Εἰρήνη — 8x
εἰρήνη — 32x
εἰρήνῃ — 8x
Εἰρήνην — 2x
εἰρήνην — 23x
εἰρήνης — 19x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 2:400,207

KJV Translation Count — Total: 92x
The KJV translates Strong's G1515 in the following manner: peace (89x), one (1x), rest (1x), quietness (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
a state of national tranquillity

exemption from the rage and havoc of war

peace between individuals, i.e. harmony, concord

security, safety, prosperity, felicity, (because peace and harmony make and keep things safe and prosperous)

of the Messiah's peace

the way that leads to peace (salvation)

of Christianity, the tranquil state of a soul assured of its salvation through Christ, and so fearing nothing from God and content with its earthly lot, of whatsoever sort that is

the blessed state of devout and upright men after death

As you can see the Koine' word for peace is a lttle more coplex than you would have us to believe..

Can you see how you have to cherry pick a defination out of this grou of definations to make your narritive valid? can you not see that there is room for your interpretation and how the word peace is used is a more broad biblical sense?

That pretty much sums up my anecdotal life. Dude! I'm not "lucky"!


So that is my evidence that God truly exists--YOUR LIFE!

If you don't like your life: then do something different!

God promised you, in the pages of the bible, life, and that more abundant even beyond your wildest dreams!


I would not tell you this if I hadn't experienced it for myself!

From one who has truly experienced a more abundant life I know it is not free. this life more abundant is liken to the life of Joseph who still was a slave under pharaoh, than the freedom to do as you will. i have more than I could ever hope to have asked for, but these 'things' are not trophies but responsibilities I must use and invest in.

I do hope you an come up with some actual scripture to back your position and maybe a few references rather than putting us in a position to simply take your word.

Absativally nothing in John 3 speaks of anything "spiritual" as that is just theological nonsense as I pointed out in my last post. pneuma, never has, and never will, mean "spirit", "spiritual" or "spirituality" whether, noun, adjective or adverb, regardless of every completely useless commentary, or lexicon ever written! And I don't care how much alphabet soup they have behind there name! They got that alphabet soup by passing classes in college so that they can proudly say, "Polly want a cracker?"
 

John 3

 

Hyper-Literal: 3)He(Jesus)-answered(as a rebuttal, middle-passive)*, thee Jesus, and-also He-said*; “amEn, amEn(truly, truly) I-am-saying, to-you(Nicodemus), if(maybe yes, maybe no)-(unless)ever no anyone he-might-be-being(passive voice)-begotten(aorist tense--not related to time)*(note 1) up-from(from-above, note 2 next page)  not he-is-able(middle-passive) to-perceive(eido-to perceive by sensory perception, particularly with physical sight; perceive with the mind, understand; to experience, acknowledge, own; to know how, implying knowledge; consider. Used metaphorically here as cannot understand)* thee kingdom(rulership) of-thee God.”

 

4)He(Nicodemus)-is-saying toward Him(Jesus)-same, thee Nicodemus, “how(in what way?--seeking to be taught)? he-is-able(middle-passive) man(mankind) to-be-being(passive voice)-begotten(aorist tense)* old-man one-keeps-on-being no he-is-able(middle-passive) into thee womb(cavity) of-thee mother of-him-same second-time to-into-come* and-also to-be-being(passive voice)-begotten(aorist tense)*” He-answered(middle-passive), thee Jesus, “amEn, amEn(truly, truly) I-am-saying, to-you(Nicodemus), if(maybe yes, maybe no)-(unless)ever no anyone he-might-be-being(passive voice)-begotten(aorist tense)* out-from(note 3 next page) [ ]of-water(note 4 next page), and-also [ ]of-pneuma-breath(note 5 next page) not ‘he-is-able(middle-passive) to-into-come*’(Jesus quoting Nicodemus’ words, mocking Nicodemus) into thee kingdom(rulership) of-thee God.” “Thee-thing one(neuter, male or female)-having-been-being-begotten out-from of-thee flesh(feminine), [ ]flesh she-is and-also thee-thing one(neuter, male or female)-having-been-being-begotten out-from of-thee-thing pneuma-breath(neuter), [ ]pneuma-breath it-is.” “No you-all-might-marvel seeing-that I-say* to-you it-is-necessary you-all ‘to-be-being(passive-voice)-begotten(aorist tense)*’ up-from(from-above). Thee pneuma-breath-effect, thee-wherever it-is-purposing, it-is-breathing and-also thee sound of-it-same you-all-are-hearing but-rather not you-all-have-been-perceiving whence(from which place)? it-is-coming(middle-passive) and-also wherever? it-is-under-leading(leading under, the breath of God is over, with authority, and you are under being lead) thusly, it-is every thee one-having-been-being-begotten out-from of-thee pneuma-breath(the God-breathed Scripture).

 

Paul put it like this to the Galatians:

 

Side by Side: But(-rather) (even-)as (then)at that time(in history) he who[thee] (2)was born(one-being-begotten*, in context referring to Ishmael) (1)according to(down-from) [the]flesh (3-)persecuted(he-in the past-is-chasing--diOkO, to make to run or flee, put to flight, drive away in any way whatsoever, to harass, trouble, molest one, to persecute) him who[thee] [was born] according to(down-from) [the]Spirit(pneuma-breath--referring to Isaac), so it is(thusly) (2)now (1)(and-)also(3-). Gal  4:29 NASB

 

_________________________________________________________________________________________

(note 1) gennaO-to beget, to be begotten, mainly used of men begetting children, views the child as having been born and does not mean physical birth. Rather, it relates the fact that you are born in relation to someone or something--lineage. The word “birth” was added by the translators in the NASB translation of 1 Corinthians 11:12.

 

To the Colossians:

 

Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. Col 3:1-4 NASB

 

Continuing:

 

9) He(Nicodemus)-answered(as a rebuttal, middle-passive)*, Nicodemus, and-also he-said* to-Him(Jesus)-same “how(in what way?--seeking to be taught)? it-is-able(middle-passive) these-things to-exist(middle-passive)”* He(Jesus)-answered(as a rebuttal, middle-passive)*, thee Jesus, and-also He-said* “you, you-are thee teacher of-thee Israel and-also these-things not you-are-knowing. amEn, amEn(truly, truly) I-am-saying, to-you(Nicodemus), seeing-that which-thing we(Jesus and His disciples)-have-been-perceiving, we-are-speaking, and-also which-thing we-have-been-seeing(Attic Greek form), we-are-bearing-witnessing(affirming) and-also thee witness(affirmation) of-us not you-are-receiving (you don’t get it Nicky-Boy).” John 3:3-11

 

Although God breathed this information into the writer Johnny-Boy, who was not there, in Greek, as God wished this to be recorded in the common street language of that day which was Koine Greek. If that be true then the word used by Jesus was probably the Hebrew word ruwach which also means breath and refers to the living-breath of God. To breathe in that which God breaths out, God’s breath of life, including the God-breathed Scripture, is to be begotten from above out-from the source of God’s living-breath and raised up from [ ]dead-ones(people whose dysfunctional lives are equated as being dead).

 

______________________________________________________________________________

(note 2) anOthen: from “anO”, “up, above”, with the enclitic of source “then” meaning “from”. It can refer to either place: from above i.e., heaven-sky; from the top or from an extreme edge. Or time: from the first; from the start. Clearly Jesus used anOthen in the sense of place and clearly Nick-Boy was thinking of anOthen in the sense of time which has been confusing--don’t you think? anOthen is also translated as “from-above” in relation to place in John 3:31:

 

"He who comes from above(anOthen) is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth He who comes from heaven is above all. John 3:31 NASB

 

(note 3) The preposition “ek”, translated into the English as “of” as in “begotten of water”, means “out-from” or “away-from” whatever is in that house of that word. It means you found the exit door of the house of that word and left. The house of that word in this case is water.

 

(note 4) Water here is not a reference to baptism neither is it a reference to God’s Word. The word here translated as water means a body of water, not water itself, but such as the body of water in a fountain, the body of water in a river or a “pool-of-water”. This same word meaning “pool-of-water” is used in Revelation 17:1 cf. v15 as a reference to many people which is also not the meaning here. Water here refers to the pool of the amniotic fluid of a women’s womb such as the phrase, “her water broke”. Jesus, by making no reference to a women therefore is not linking this to bloodlines but to flesh. He is merely stating to Nicodemus that we were originally begotten in relation, out-from water, fleshly. This is proved by the statement that Jesus makes to Nicodemus in verse 6, “The one-having-been-being-begotten out-from of-thee flesh, flesh is”. Clearly Nicodemus brought up the subject of the womb then Jesus talked about water and related it to flesh.

 

(note 5) We are also to be out-from pneuma-breath(life and intellect from an exterior source i.e., God and the God-breathed Scripture) if we are to be begotten from above. Begotten out-from water is one thing, earthly, down, but being begotten out-from pneuma-breath is to be begotten from above, heavenly, up. I can only imagine that since Nicodemus and Jesus were both Jews that this original conversation was conducted in Hebrew or Aramaic and not Greek.

 

To the Corinthians:

 

Hyper-Literal: It(body)-is-being-sown(scattered like seeds) [ ]body psuchikon (natural-breath, adjective referring to natural human intellect describing a body breathing thusly) it(body)-is-being-roused(raised, awakened) [ ]pneumatikon  (pneumatic-breath-one, substantive adjective referring to intellect breathed in from an external source describing a body breathing thusly); it-is [ ]body psuchikon (natural-breath) and-also it-is [ ]body pneumatikon (pneumatic-breath). Thusly and-also it-has-been-written(passive) “he-appears(middle-passive)*, thee first-most(prOtos here refers to first in a succession) man, Adam, into [ ]psuchE (natural-breath) one-keeps-on-living”; the last Adam into [ ]pneuma-breath(neuter) one(it)-causing-to-live/grow (metaphorically referring to the sown seeds). But-rather not first-most thee pneumatikon (pneumatic-breathing-one) but-rather thee psuchikon (natural-breathing-one) afterwards thee pneumatikon (pneumatic-breathing-one). The first-most man out-from [ ]of-land soil(-ish, earthy, dirt-like, adjective) thee second man, thee Lord(Master, Authority), out-from [ ]of-sky. Thee-which(correlative) thee soil(-ish, earthy, dirt-like, pile of dirt, dust)-one(referring to the first Adam) [ ]likewise-all and-also thee-all soil(-ish, earthy, dirt-like, pile of dirt, dust)-ones(referring to us all) and-also thee-which(correlative) thee epouranios--on-over-sky-high-One(referring to Jesus, the last Adam) [ ]likewise-all and-also-thee-all epouranioi--on-over-sky-high-ones(nominative masculine plural, referring to us sky people). And down-from-as we-all-wear* thee image(likeness) of thee soil(-ish, earthy, dirt-like, pile of dirt, dust)-one(Adam) we-all-shall(in the future)-be-wearing thee image(likeness) of-thee on-over-sky-high-One(Jesus). Yet this-thing I-am-declaring, brethren!, seeing-that flesh and-also blood [ ]Kingdom of-God to-partake (by receiving an allotment)* not they-are-able(middle-passive) yet-not thee perishable (feminine), thee imperishable(feminine) she-is-partaking. 1 Corinthians 15:44-50

 

Johnny-Boy put it like this:

 

Hyper-Literal: Into thee own-things(possessions, domain), He(Jesus)-came(appeared)* and thee-all own-ones(Jews) Him-same not they-accepted(took to themselves)*. Yet whom-all-so-ever they-take(take what is being given)* Him-same He-gives* to-them-same [ ]volitional-authority tekna-children of-God, to-become(middle-passive)* to-thee-all ones-keep-on-trusting into thee name/fame of-Him-same, whom-all not out-from of-bloods(bloodlines) nor out-from [ ]of-will of-flesh nor out-from [ ]of-will of-man, but-rather out-from [ ]of-God they-all-being-begotten* John 1:11-13

 

Rocky put it like this:

 

Hyper-Literal: The psuchE(natural)-breaths of-you-all ones-having-been-purified in thee under(authority)-hear(submission) of-thee truth through pneuma-breath into brotherly-love(fondness) [ ]unfeigned(undisguised) out-from(source) [ ]of-clean(cleansed, pure, purified) heart(innermost being) all-one-another(reciprocally) be!-you-all- agapE-loving out-reachingly(reach-out to one another): ones-having-been-being-up-begotten not out-from(source) [ ]of-seed perishable but-rather [ ]of-imperishable though(means) [ ]of-Word One-keeps-on-living of-God and-also One-keeps-on-abiding into thee breath-being. 1 Pet 1:22-23

 

Jesus by saying “unless one is begotten from-above(out from breath i.e., that which God breaths i.e., His life, His intellect) he cannot understand the kingdom of God” is not indicating to Nicodemus that he must become a “believer”, nor is He indicating to Nicodemus that he is an “unbeliever”, nor is Jesus teaching “salvation”. Jesus is stating to Nicodemus that anyone who wishes to understand the kingdom of God, and therefore enter it, must be begotten from above out-from the breath of that which God breaths, both living breath and the God-breathed Scripture. Nicodemus, being a chief teacher of Israel, should have understood this:

 

"He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD. Deut 8:3 NASB

 

"But now listen, O Jacob, My servant, And Israel, whom I have chosen: Thus says the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb (mibeten-since birth, exit from the womb, children. Does not mean in the womb), who will help you, 'Do not fear, O Jacob My servant; And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen. 'For I will pour out water on the thirsty land And streams on the dry ground; I will pour out My breath on your offspring And My blessing on your descendants; And they will spring up among the grass Like poplars by streams of water.' "This one will say, 'I am the LORD'S'; And that one will call on the name of Jacob; And another will write on his hand, 'Belonging to the LORD(interesting—that’s another way of saying Christian),' And will name Israel's name with honor. "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. Isa 44:1-6 NASB

 

Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb (from birth), "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone, Isa 44:24 NASB

 

" Listen to Me, O house of Jacob, And all the remnant of the house of Israel, You who have been borne by Me from birth And have been carried from the womb (since being born); Isa 46:3 NASB

And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb (since birth) to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back (rebellious Jews) to Him, so that Israel might be gathered to Him For I am honored in the sight of the LORD, And My God is My strength, Isa 49:50 NASB

 

"Shall I bring to the point of birth and not give delivery?" says the LORD. Or shall I who gives delivery shut the womb?" says your God. "Be joyful with Jerusalem and rejoice for her, all you who love her; Be exceedingly glad with her, all you who mourn over her, That you may nurse and be satisfied with her comforting breasts, That you may suck and be delighted with her bountiful bosom." For thus says the LORD, "Behold, I extend peace to her like a river, And the glory of the nations like an overflowing stream; And you will be nursed, you will be carried on the hip and fondled on the knees. "As one whom his mother comforts, so I will comfort you; And you will be comforted in Jerusalem." Isa 66:9-13 NASB

---

Post-reform religitards speak of "salvation" as if it is the most important thing complete with a "Gospel". However, as one who can actually read the autographed languages of the bible, no such thing exists!

well I guess you can't read the text in question as well as you think you can, or your not educated enough to provide the supporting evidence that makes a wild claim plausible. The first thing an intellectually honest person does when making a claim like this is to provide source material from a liget well known source primary or secondary source. So fa you provide smoke and mirrors with a claim to read a dead language as if it were pig latin.

The Word of God was not given us to achieve "salvation". Rather, it is a gift of God that we might have life, right here, right now, and that more abundant. That is deliverance and not "salvation".

Book chapter and verse please.
the whole of John 3 would be the words of Christ directly contradicting what you have said here.

The English word "salvation" is a borrowed French word transliterated from the Latin salvationem. IOW's, sOtEria is not translated and it meaning has been lost and reinvented.

The etymology of the english word here is moot sport. as Pointed out by By Jesus Himself in John 3 as the whole chapter speaks to the spiritual salvation/being saved from Hell/second death and be given eternal life. it does not matter what the french word is what is being described in the Koine greek is a process of being born of the Holy Spirit to escape Judgement and the death of the Soul in Hell to go onto eternal life. So whether the word you choose is salvation or deliverance or cubblesvagon the process being described in the Gospel of Christ is a process we deem salvation because it saves us from the destruction of Hell.

The word translated as "salvation" is sOtEria and means: deliverance and is very general and non-specific: preservation, deliverance, rescue, kept safe and sound, made whole, etc. IOW's, what ever is necessary for the moment

Actually t means:
σωτηρία
Transliteration
sōtēria
Pronunciation
sō-tā-rē'-ä (Key)
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Feminine of a derivative of σωτήρ (G4990) as (properly, abstract) noun
Textus Receptus Occurrences — 45x in 3 unique form(s)
σωτηρία — 8x
σωτηρίαν — 17x
σωτηρίας — 20x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 7:965,1132

KJV Translation Count — Total: 45x
The KJV translates Strong's G4991 in the following manner: salvation (40x), the (one) be saved (1x), deliver (with G1325) (1x), health (1x), saving (1x), that (one) be saved (with G1519) (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation

deliverance from the molestation of enemies

in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the soul's safety or salvation

of Messianic salvation

salvation as the present possession of all true Christians

future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...4991&t=KJV

God also informs us that He want's us to have peace which is the Greek word eirEnE and literally means: the absents of strife. However, when strife happens, deliverance will follow. So, it is a matter of trust and not a belief system. 

εἰρήνη
Transliteration
eirēnē
Pronunciation
ā-rā'-nā (Key)
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Probably from a primary verb eiro (to join)
Textus Receptus Occurrences — 92x in 6 unique form(s)
Εἰρήνη — 8x
εἰρήνη — 32x
εἰρήνῃ — 8x
Εἰρήνην — 2x
εἰρήνην — 23x
εἰρήνης — 19x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 2:400,207

KJV Translation Count — Total: 92x
The KJV translates Strong's G1515 in the following manner: peace (89x), one (1x), rest (1x), quietness (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
a state of national tranquillity

exemption from the rage and havoc of war

peace between individuals, i.e. harmony, concord

security, safety, prosperity, felicity, (because peace and harmony make and keep things safe and prosperous)

of the Messiah's peace

the way that leads to peace (salvation)

of Christianity, the tranquil state of a soul assured of its salvation through Christ, and so fearing nothing from God and content with its earthly lot, of whatsoever sort that is

the blessed state of devout and upright men after death

As you can see the Koine' word for peace is a lttle more coplex than you would have us to believe..

Can you see how you have to cherry pick a defination out of this grou of definations to make your narritive valid? can you not see that there is room for your interpretation and how the word peace is used is a more broad biblical sense?

That pretty much sums up my anecdotal life. Dude! I'm not "lucky"!


So that is my evidence that God truly exists--YOUR LIFE!

If you don't like your life: then do something different!

God promised you, in the pages of the bible, life, and that more abundant even beyond your wildest dreams!


I would not tell you this if I hadn't experienced it for myself!

From one who has truly experienced a more abundant life I know it is not free. this life more abundant is liken to the life of Joseph who still was a slave under pharaoh, than the freedom to do as you will. i have more than I could ever hope to have asked for, but these 'things' are not trophies but responsibilities I must use and invest in.

I do hope you an come up with some actual scripture to back your position and maybe a few references rather than putting us in a position to simply take your word.

Here is some more verses from John 3:

 

pisteuO, as a verb, is often in its present participle form which is pisteuOn. The present participle in Greek ALWAYS refers to continuous, repeated, customary action in a progressive, linear(on-going) present. Therefore, pisteuOn means to-keep-on, always, continuously-trusting and does not refer to a one-shot decision:

 

Hyper-Literal: (Jesus speaking to Nicodemus about the Son of Man) That(purpose) any thee one-keeps-on-trusting(pisteuOn) into Him(Son of Man)-same no he-might-be(acting upon himself under the authority of his own volition--stupidly)-a-part-of-ruin but-rather he-might-be-having zOE-life(feminine) breath-being-belonging-to-her. For thusly, He(God)-agapE-loves, thee God, thee kosmos-world as(comparative)-besides(like-this, insomuch as) thee Son of-Him(God)-same, thee unique-begotten-One, He-gives* that(purpose) any thee one-keeps-on-trusting(pisteuOn) into Him(Son)-same no he-might-be(acting upon himself under the authority of his own volition--stupidly)-a-part-of-ruin/rendered useless/put to death(i.e., if you keep on trusting into the Son you do not have the authority to screw it up!) but-rather he-might-be-having zOE-life(feminine) breath-being-belonging-to-her(right here, right now). John 3:15-16

 

"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18 NASB

 

Hyper-Literal(same verse): (starting from verse 17) (Jesus speaking)For(assigning a reason) not He(God)-from-arrange(sent out)*, thee God, thee Son of-Him-same into thee kosmos-world that(purpose) He-might-be-judging thee kosmos-world but-rather that(purpose) he(kosmos)-might-be-being-delivered*, thee kosmos-world, through(means) of-Him-same. Thee one-keeps-on-trusting(pisteuOn) into Him-same not he-has-been-being-judged: yet thee no one-keeps-on-trusting(pisteuOn) already he-has-been-being-judged seeing-that no he-has-been-trusting into thee fame of-thee unique-begotten Son of-thee God. John 3:17-18

 

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36 NASB          

 

Hyper-Literal(same verse): (the Apostle John quoting John the Baptist) “The one-keeps-on-trusting(pisteuOn) into thee Son he-is-having zOE-life(feminine) breath-being-belonging-to-her(right here, right now): yet the one-keeps-on-being-unpersuadable to-thee Son not he-shall(in the future)-be-showing-himself(middle-passive)-to-appearing-being zOE-life but-rather thee wrath(feminine), namely--of-thee God, she-is-remaining on him-same(right here, right now).” John 3:36

 

pisteuein is the present infinitive(verbal noun) of pisteuO and also refers to continuous, repeated, customary action in a progressive, linear(on-going) present:

 

Hyper-Literal: (27) Only worthily(in a manner worthy) of-thee well-message of-thee Anointed-One, be!-you-all-citizens(middle-passive) that(purpose) if-whether one(Paul)-coming*> and-also one-perceiving*>, <you-all,(i.e., if I--Paul, am coming to you-all and perceiving) if-whether one-kept-apart-from-being(absent i.e., if whether I--Paul, am coming to you-all or kept as absent)*, I-might-hear*> thee-things> concerning <you-all, perceiving-that you-all-are-standing-firm in one pneuma-breath-effect, one psuchE-breath, ones-always-together-competing(competing together for the prize) (with respect)to-thee trust of-thee-well-message; (28) and-also no ones-always-being-frightened in-nothing under(you are under them and they are against you) of-thee ones-always-instead-lying(always lying in wait in opposition to you) whatsoever(feminine) to-them-same indeed she-is in-show(demonstration, proof, evidence, sign) of-a-part-of-the-whole-of-ruin(destruction, feminine), yet to-you-all of-deliverance and-also this-thing from of-God (29) seeing-that to-you-all it-being-joyously-favored* thee-thing over of-anointed(masculine, this is speaking of their--Philippians--position as anointed), not only thee-thing into he(anointed)-same to-keep-on-trusting(pisteuein), but and-also thee-thing over he(anointed)-same to-keep-on-suffering(i.e., experiencing--vox media either good or bad. The accusative of a thing here is emphasizing the good, pleasant experiences) (30) thee same contest(for the prize) ones-keep-on-possessing such-as you-all-perceive* in me and-also now(presently) you-all-are-hearing(finding out, learning, attending to, considering, understanding through the faculty of the ear i.e., someone was then presently reading this to them) in me. Phil 1:27-30

 

[Wyrd of Gawd]

How about using the "hide" feature on crap like Post #33?

[robvalue]

God sure is a terrible author. He could just beam whatever he wants to say into our minds, right now, and save all this squabbling about ancient texts.

[Haipule]

I do NOT "believe" in God. I trust Him to be the solid ground of the invisible bridge I walk on called "life". A journey of epic proportions!

Well, what do you believe God to be or are you content to leave it as an unresolvable mystery?  If you're down with the mystery, would you be down with an entirely natural God rooted in your noggin - a god that knew the contents of your heart but far from omniscient, a God that creates the possibility of your existence as you find it but no, not the entire cosmos.  See if you could scale back the extravagant claims I at least would have no beef with a natural god.

---

Well, at least you've rationalized a way to sleep at night.

I'm pretty sure that is the job of the massive doses of margaritas he takes.

Whateverist: you know that I love you and I am not alone! But please! God is NOT nature and, nature is NOT God!--never has been and, never will be! Yet, nature reflects God!

As Paul said: "You will know God by the things that He has made!"

Be not concerned!

Please consider the righteousness of God! If, if, if, God commanded all things to exist according to HIS standard of perfection, which is His own righteousness: then should we pursue(seek) HIS righteousness?

Lets get real stupid: did God invent the hamburger, in all of it's glory, to be enjoyed in all of it's glory? If you said yes then, you pursued that perfection--I hope--as I did, shoots--I ain't even done yet!! So, why don't I go to your house so that I can enjoy the most righteous burger that God invented for us all to enjoy--straight from your God given intellect and God given ideal, pursuing God's perfection--which is His standard of the "all things" including hamburgers?!

Pursuing that standard, in anything related to life, will make you the best as God will guarantee it! Regardless of  my "massive doses"! Everything else truly sucks! 

The above is true--is it not? The death that is "theology" could never tell you that! The life that is God's Word--SCREAMS IT! Science, except for cooking, is numb!


Nature is God's design! Use it to the fullest advantage and be glorious!

Stay shiny my friend and bling!

The world is yours and all it contains. SEIZE IT! NOTHING can stop you!

As John said, "What is that which concurs the world? Your faith(trustworthiness)! As a pursuer of the perfection of God in the all things of His making and design that is nature!

[Haipule]

Drich! REALLY! Eternal? Nothing that has a beginning, or end , can be "eternal"! Most certainly NOT time! The word you translate as "eternal" is "aiOnios". ai = breath + -On = existence + -ios = belong to he/she/it! Breath-being-belong-to-he/she/it!

Did God say for us to have "eternal life"? Or, was God communicating to us that we should be a breath-being-belonging-to-her zOE-life(feminine) as trustworthy useful ones--right her, right now!?

Did Jesus Himself say the He is, "The Way, the Truth and the life"?

Then why do you attempt to teach the atheist, agnostic and the antitheist the uselessness of "salvation"? Instead of the promised abundant Life that is Jesus alone? And that, according to God's Faith for them that is the body and content that is Scripture; according to God's hope for them found in Scripture, utilizing God's love which is their potential leadership skills, so that they can seek God's righteousness in the all things He has made for them to pursue, so that they, themselves, might be glorified and honored for such honest pursuits?

Everyone understands themselves as honest, loving and honorable! God recognizes that as a true potential of anyone. Then why is it you tell them that they "must be saved" while they are already being as honorable as they know how to be? You didn't teach them that! You teach them that they will suffer the second death and burn in "hell" if they don't "believe" in Jesus!

That is a BOLD FACED LIE you learned from the clergy whom wrote books, apparently, just to prove how completely useless you, and they, are!!! And they have spent nearly 2,000yrs trying to convince everyone how smart they are, "godly" and "spiritual"! It's enough to make God puke!!!

The people on this forum, if I may speak for them, are already involved with life and love! Help them to be the best or, shout up and listen! So that you can be the best you can be completely schooled!

The end game is the "Book of Life". Are you going to tell me that anyone who's name is not found in that book is an "unbeliever"? And that everyone in that book is "saved"? There is NOTHING more important to anyone's life then their own including all their responsibilities they are challenged with which include their capacity to love!

Those people are hero's God never said was useless!

Now, my point was that the only proof that God exists is THERE OWN life and not "theology"!

[vulcanlogician]

Whateverist: you know that I love you and I am not alone! But please! God is NOT nature and, nature is NOT God!--never has been and, never will be! Yet, nature reflects God!

As Paul said: "You will know God by the things that He has made!"

I'm glad you're back from Margaritaville, man! We were lost without you.

The issue I take with your quotation of Paul here is that (assuming God exists) his followers seem to ignore Paul's advice--ironically focusing to much on Paul's letters whilst ignoring this little tidbit of wisdom embedded in the letters themselves.

I think Khem hits the nail on the head when he says "magic book worshippers." I've talked to tons of Christians (online and in RL) and, aside from a few exceptions, most of them worship a book and are utterly clueless about how one might know God outside it.

[Caligvla XXI]

well I guess you can't read the text in question as well as you think you can, or your not educated enough to provide the supporting evidence that makes a wild claim plausible. The first thing an intellectually honest person does when making a claim like this is to provide source material from a liget well known source primary or secondary source. So fa you provide smoke and mirrors with a claim to read a dead language as if it were pig latin.

Book chapter and verse please.
the whole of John 3 would be the words of Christ directly contradicting what you have said here.

The etymology of the english word here is moot sport. as Pointed out by By Jesus Himself in John 3 as the whole chapter speaks to the spiritual salvation/being saved from Hell/second death and be given eternal life. it does not matter what the french word is what is being described in the Koine greek is a process of being born of the Holy Spirit to escape Judgement and the death of the Soul in Hell to go onto eternal life. So whether the word you choose is salvation or deliverance or cubblesvagon the process being described in the Gospel of Christ is a process we deem salvation because it saves us from the destruction of Hell.


Actually t means:
σωτηρία
Transliteration
sōtēria
Pronunciation
sō-tā-rē'-ä (Key)
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Feminine of a derivative of σωτήρ (G4990) as (properly, abstract) noun
Textus Receptus Occurrences — 45x in 3 unique form(s)
σωτηρία — 8x
σωτηρίαν — 17x
σωτηρίας — 20x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 7:965,1132

KJV Translation Count — Total: 45x
The KJV translates Strong's G4991 in the following manner: salvation (40x), the (one) be saved (1x), deliver (with G1325) (1x), health (1x), saving (1x), that (one) be saved (with G1519) (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation

deliverance from the molestation of enemies

in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the soul's safety or salvation

of Messianic salvation

salvation as the present possession of all true Christians

future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...4991&t=KJV


εἰρήνη
Transliteration
eirēnē
Pronunciation
ā-rā'-nā (Key)
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Probably from a primary verb eiro (to join)
Textus Receptus Occurrences — 92x in 6 unique form(s)
Εἰρήνη — 8x
εἰρήνη — 32x
εἰρήνῃ — 8x
Εἰρήνην — 2x
εἰρήνην — 23x
εἰρήνης — 19x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 2:400,207

KJV Translation Count — Total: 92x
The KJV translates Strong's G1515 in the following manner: peace (89x), one (1x), rest (1x), quietness (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
a state of national tranquillity

exemption from the rage and havoc of war

peace between individuals, i.e. harmony, concord

security, safety, prosperity, felicity, (because peace and harmony make and keep things safe and prosperous)

of the Messiah's peace

the way that leads to peace (salvation)

of Christianity, the tranquil state of a soul assured of its salvation through Christ, and so fearing nothing from God and content with its earthly lot, of whatsoever sort that is

the blessed state of devout and upright men after death

As you can see the Koine' word for peace is a lttle more coplex than you would have us to believe..

Can you see how you have to cherry pick a defination out of this grou of definations to make your narritive valid? can you not see that there is room for your interpretation and how the word peace is used is a more broad biblical sense?



From one who has truly experienced a more abundant life I know it is not free. this life more abundant is liken to the life of Joseph who still was a slave under pharaoh, than the freedom to do as you will. i have more than I could ever hope to have asked for, but these 'things' are not trophies but responsibilities I must use and invest in.

I do hope you an come up with some actual scripture to back your position and maybe a few references rather than putting us in a position to simply take your word.

Absativally nothing in John 3 speaks of anything "spiritual" as that is just theological nonsense as I pointed out in my last post. pneuma, never has, and never will, mean "spirit", "spiritual" or "spirituality" whether, noun, adjective or adverb, regardless of every completely useless commentary, or lexicon ever written! And I don't care how much alphabet soup they have behind there name! They got that alphabet soup by passing classes in college so that they can proudly say, "Polly want a cracker?"
 

John 3

 

Hyper-Literal: 3)He(Jesus)-answered(as a rebuttal, middle-passive)*, thee Jesus, and-also He-said*; “amEn, amEn(truly, truly) I-am-saying, to-you(Nicodemus), if(maybe yes, maybe no)-(unless)ever no anyone he-might-be-being(passive voice)-begotten(aorist tense--not related to time)*(note 1) up-from(from-above, note 2 next page)  not he-is-able(middle-passive) to-perceive(eido-to perceive by sensory perception, particularly with physical sight; perceive with the mind, understand; to experience, acknowledge, own; to know how, implying knowledge; consider. Used metaphorically here as cannot understand)* thee kingdom(rulership) of-thee God.”

 

4)He(Nicodemus)-is-saying toward Him(Jesus)-same, thee Nicodemus, “how(in what way?--seeking to be taught)? he-is-able(middle-passive) man(mankind) to-be-being(passive voice)-begotten(aorist tense)* old-man one-keeps-on-being no he-is-able(middle-passive) into thee womb(cavity) of-thee mother of-him-same second-time to-into-come* and-also to-be-being(passive voice)-begotten(aorist tense)*” He-answered(middle-passive), thee Jesus, “amEn, amEn(truly, truly) I-am-saying, to-you(Nicodemus), if(maybe yes, maybe no)-(unless)ever no anyone he-might-be-being(passive voice)-begotten(aorist tense)* out-from(note 3 next page) [ ]of-water(note 4 next page), and-also [ ]of-pneuma-breath(note 5 next page) not ‘he-is-able(middle-passive) to-into-come*’(Jesus quoting Nicodemus’ words, mocking Nicodemus) into thee kingdom(rulership) of-thee God.” “Thee-thing one(neuter, male or female)-having-been-being-begotten out-from of-thee flesh(feminine), [ ]flesh she-is and-also thee-thing one(neuter, male or female)-having-been-being-begotten out-from of-thee-thing pneuma-breath(neuter), [ ]pneuma-breath it-is.” “No you-all-might-marvel seeing-that I-say* to-you it-is-necessary you-all ‘to-be-being(passive-voice)-begotten(aorist tense)*’ up-from(from-above). Thee pneuma-breath-effect, thee-wherever it-is-purposing, it-is-breathing and-also thee sound of-it-same you-all-are-hearing but-rather not you-all-have-been-perceiving whence(from which place)? it-is-coming(middle-passive) and-also wherever? it-is-under-leading(leading under, the breath of God is over, with authority, and you are under being lead) thusly, it-is every thee one-having-been-being-begotten out-from of-thee pneuma-breath(the God-breathed Scripture).

 

Paul put it like this to the Galatians:

 

Side by Side: But(-rather) (even-)as (then)at that time(in history) he who[thee] (2)was born(one-being-begotten*, in context referring to Ishmael) (1)according to(down-from) [the]flesh (3-)persecuted(he-in the past-is-chasing--diOkO, to make to run or flee, put to flight, drive away in any way whatsoever, to harass, trouble, molest one, to persecute) him who[thee] [was born] according to(down-from) [the]Spirit(pneuma-breath--referring to Isaac), so it is(thusly) (2)now (1)(and-)also(3-). Gal  4:29 NASB

 

_________________________________________________________________________________________

(note 1) gennaO-to beget, to be begotten, mainly used of men begetting children, views the child as having been born and does not mean physical birth. Rather, it relates the fact that you are born in relation to someone or something--lineage. The word “birth” was added by the translators in the NASB translation of 1 Corinthians 11:12.

 

To the Colossians:

 

Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. Col 3:1-4 NASB

 

Continuing:

 

9) He(Nicodemus)-answered(as a rebuttal, middle-passive)*, Nicodemus, and-also he-said* to-Him(Jesus)-same “how(in what way?--seeking to be taught)? it-is-able(middle-passive) these-things to-exist(middle-passive)”* He(Jesus)-answered(as a rebuttal, middle-passive)*, thee Jesus, and-also He-said* “you, you-are thee teacher of-thee Israel and-also these-things not you-are-knowing. amEn, amEn(truly, truly) I-am-saying, to-you(Nicodemus), seeing-that which-thing we(Jesus and His disciples)-have-been-perceiving, we-are-speaking, and-also which-thing we-have-been-seeing(Attic Greek form), we-are-bearing-witnessing(affirming) and-also thee witness(affirmation) of-us not you-are-receiving (you don’t get it Nicky-Boy).” John 3:3-11

 

Although God breathed this information into the writer Johnny-Boy, who was not there, in Greek, as God wished this to be recorded in the common street language of that day which was Koine Greek. If that be true then the word used by Jesus was probably the Hebrew word ruwach which also means breath and refers to the living-breath of God. To breathe in that which God breaths out, God’s breath of life, including the God-breathed Scripture, is to be begotten from above out-from the source of God’s living-breath and raised up from [ ]dead-ones(people whose dysfunctional lives are equated as being dead).

 

______________________________________________________________________________

(note 2) anOthen: from “anO”, “up, above”, with the enclitic of source “then” meaning “from”. It can refer to either place: from above i.e., heaven-sky; from the top or from an extreme edge. Or time: from the first; from the start. Clearly Jesus used anOthen in the sense of place and clearly Nick-Boy was thinking of anOthen in the sense of time which has been confusing--don’t you think? anOthen is also translated as “from-above” in relation to place in John 3:31:

 

"He who comes from above(anOthen) is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth He who comes from heaven is above all. John 3:31 NASB

 

(note 3) The preposition “ek”, translated into the English as “of” as in “begotten of water”, means “out-from” or “away-from” whatever is in that house of that word. It means you found the exit door of the house of that word and left. The house of that word in this case is water.

 

(note 4) Water here is not a reference to baptism neither is it a reference to God’s Word. The word here translated as water means a body of water, not water itself, but such as the body of water in a fountain, the body of water in a river or a “pool-of-water”. This same word meaning “pool-of-water” is used in Revelation 17:1 cf. v15 as a reference to many people which is also not the meaning here. Water here refers to the pool of the amniotic fluid of a women’s womb such as the phrase, “her water broke”. Jesus, by making no reference to a women therefore is not linking this to bloodlines but to flesh. He is merely stating to Nicodemus that we were originally begotten in relation, out-from water, fleshly. This is proved by the statement that Jesus makes to Nicodemus in verse 6, “The one-having-been-being-begotten out-from of-thee flesh, flesh is”. Clearly Nicodemus brought up the subject of the womb then Jesus talked about water and related it to flesh.

 

(note 5) We are also to be out-from pneuma-breath(life and intellect from an exterior source i.e., God and the God-breathed Scripture) if we are to be begotten from above. Begotten out-from water is one thing, earthly, down, but being begotten out-from pneuma-breath is to be begotten from above, heavenly, up. I can only imagine that since Nicodemus and Jesus were both Jews that this original conversation was conducted in Hebrew or Aramaic and not Greek.

 

To the Corinthians:

 

Hyper-Literal: It(body)-is-being-sown(scattered like seeds) [ ]body psuchikon (natural-breath, adjective referring to natural human intellect describing a body breathing thusly) it(body)-is-being-roused(raised, awakened) [ ]pneumatikon  (pneumatic-breath-one, substantive adjective referring to intellect breathed in from an external source describing a body breathing thusly); it-is [ ]body psuchikon (natural-breath) and-also it-is [ ]body pneumatikon (pneumatic-breath). Thusly and-also it-has-been-written(passive) “he-appears(middle-passive)*, thee first-most(prOtos here refers to first in a succession) man, Adam, into [ ]psuchE (natural-breath) one-keeps-on-living”; the last Adam into [ ]pneuma-breath(neuter) one(it)-causing-to-live/grow (metaphorically referring to the sown seeds). But-rather not first-most thee pneumatikon (pneumatic-breathing-one) but-rather thee psuchikon (natural-breathing-one) afterwards thee pneumatikon (pneumatic-breathing-one). The first-most man out-from [ ]of-land soil(-ish, earthy, dirt-like, adjective) thee second man, thee Lord(Master, Authority), out-from [ ]of-sky. Thee-which(correlative) thee soil(-ish, earthy, dirt-like, pile of dirt, dust)-one(referring to the first Adam) [ ]likewise-all and-also thee-all soil(-ish, earthy, dirt-like, pile of dirt, dust)-ones(referring to us all) and-also thee-which(correlative) thee epouranios--on-over-sky-high-One(referring to Jesus, the last Adam) [ ]likewise-all and-also-thee-all epouranioi--on-over-sky-high-ones(nominative masculine plural, referring to us sky people). And down-from-as we-all-wear* thee image(likeness) of thee soil(-ish, earthy, dirt-like, pile of dirt, dust)-one(Adam) we-all-shall(in the future)-be-wearing thee image(likeness) of-thee on-over-sky-high-One(Jesus). Yet this-thing I-am-declaring, brethren!, seeing-that flesh and-also blood [ ]Kingdom of-God to-partake (by receiving an allotment)* not they-are-able(middle-passive) yet-not thee perishable (feminine), thee imperishable(feminine) she-is-partaking. 1 Corinthians 15:44-50

 

Johnny-Boy put it like this:

 

Hyper-Literal: Into thee own-things(possessions, domain), He(Jesus)-came(appeared)* and thee-all own-ones(Jews) Him-same not they-accepted(took to themselves)*. Yet whom-all-so-ever they-take(take what is being given)* Him-same He-gives* to-them-same [ ]volitional-authority tekna-children of-God, to-become(middle-passive)* to-thee-all ones-keep-on-trusting into thee name/fame of-Him-same, whom-all not out-from of-bloods(bloodlines) nor out-from [ ]of-will of-flesh nor out-from [ ]of-will of-man, but-rather out-from [ ]of-God they-all-being-begotten* John 1:11-13

 

Rocky put it like this:

 

Hyper-Literal: The psuchE(natural)-breaths of-you-all ones-having-been-purified in thee under(authority)-hear(submission) of-thee truth through pneuma-breath into brotherly-love(fondness) [ ]unfeigned(undisguised) out-from(source) [ ]of-clean(cleansed, pure, purified) heart(innermost being) all-one-another(reciprocally) be!-you-all- agapE-loving out-reachingly(reach-out to one another): ones-having-been-being-up-begotten not out-from(source) [ ]of-seed perishable but-rather [ ]of-imperishable though(means) [ ]of-Word One-keeps-on-living of-God and-also One-keeps-on-abiding into thee breath-being. 1 Pet 1:22-23

 

Jesus by saying “unless one is begotten from-above(out from breath i.e., that which God breaths i.e., His life, His intellect) he cannot understand the kingdom of God” is not indicating to Nicodemus that he must become a “believer”, nor is He indicating to Nicodemus that he is an “unbeliever”, nor is Jesus teaching “salvation”. Jesus is stating to Nicodemus that anyone who wishes to understand the kingdom of God, and therefore enter it, must be begotten from above out-from the breath of that which God breaths, both living breath and the God-breathed Scripture. Nicodemus, being a chief teacher of Israel, should have understood this:

 

"He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD. Deut 8:3 NASB

 

"But now listen, O Jacob, My servant, And Israel, whom I have chosen: Thus says the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb (mibeten-since birth, exit from the womb, children. Does not mean in the womb), who will help you, 'Do not fear, O Jacob My servant; And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen. 'For I will pour out water on the thirsty land And streams on the dry ground; I will pour out My breath on your offspring And My blessing on your descendants; And they will spring up among the grass Like poplars by streams of water.' "This one will say, 'I am the LORD'S'; And that one will call on the name of Jacob; And another will write on his hand, 'Belonging to the LORD(interesting—that’s another way of saying Christian),' And will name Israel's name with honor. "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. Isa 44:1-6 NASB

 

Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb (from birth), "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone, Isa 44:24 NASB

 

" Listen to Me, O house of Jacob, And all the remnant of the house of Israel, You who have been borne by Me from birth And have been carried from the womb (since being born); Isa 46:3 NASB

And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb (since birth) to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back (rebellious Jews) to Him, so that Israel might be gathered to Him For I am honored in the sight of the LORD, And My God is My strength, Isa 49:50 NASB

 

"Shall I bring to the point of birth and not give delivery?" says the LORD. Or shall I who gives delivery shut the womb?" says your God. "Be joyful with Jerusalem and rejoice for her, all you who love her; Be exceedingly glad with her, all you who mourn over her, That you may nurse and be satisfied with her comforting breasts, That you may suck and be delighted with her bountiful bosom." For thus says the LORD, "Behold, I extend peace to her like a river, And the glory of the nations like an overflowing stream; And you will be nursed, you will be carried on the hip and fondled on the knees. "As one whom his mother comforts, so I will comfort you; And you will be comforted in Jerusalem." Isa 66:9-13 NASB

---

well I guess you can't read the text in question as well as you think you can, or your not educated enough to provide the supporting evidence that makes a wild claim plausible. The first thing an intellectually honest person does when making a claim like this is to provide source material from a liget well known source primary or secondary source. So fa you provide smoke and mirrors with a claim to read a dead language as if it were pig latin.

Book chapter and verse please.
the whole of John 3 would be the words of Christ directly contradicting what you have said here.

The etymology of the english word here is moot sport. as Pointed out by By Jesus Himself in John 3 as the whole chapter speaks to the spiritual salvation/being saved from Hell/second death and be given eternal life. it does not matter what the french word is what is being described in the Koine greek is a process of being born of the Holy Spirit to escape Judgement and the death of the Soul in Hell to go onto eternal life. So whether the word you choose is salvation or deliverance or cubblesvagon the process being described in the Gospel of Christ is a process we deem salvation because it saves us from the destruction of Hell.


Actually t means:
σωτηρία
Transliteration
sōtēria
Pronunciation
sō-tā-rē'-ä (Key)
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Feminine of a derivative of σωτήρ (G4990) as (properly, abstract) noun
Textus Receptus Occurrences — 45x in 3 unique form(s)
σωτηρία — 8x
σωτηρίαν — 17x
σωτηρίας — 20x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 7:965,1132

KJV Translation Count — Total: 45x
The KJV translates Strong's G4991 in the following manner: salvation (40x), the (one) be saved (1x), deliver (with G1325) (1x), health (1x), saving (1x), that (one) be saved (with G1519) (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation

deliverance from the molestation of enemies

in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the soul's safety or salvation

of Messianic salvation

salvation as the present possession of all true Christians

future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...4991&t=KJV


εἰρήνη
Transliteration
eirēnē
Pronunciation
ā-rā'-nā (Key)
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Probably from a primary verb eiro (to join)
Textus Receptus Occurrences — 92x in 6 unique form(s)
Εἰρήνη — 8x
εἰρήνη — 32x
εἰρήνῃ — 8x
Εἰρήνην — 2x
εἰρήνην — 23x
εἰρήνης — 19x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 2:400,207

KJV Translation Count — Total: 92x
The KJV translates Strong's G1515 in the following manner: peace (89x), one (1x), rest (1x), quietness (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
a state of national tranquillity

exemption from the rage and havoc of war

peace between individuals, i.e. harmony, concord

security, safety, prosperity, felicity, (because peace and harmony make and keep things safe and prosperous)

of the Messiah's peace

the way that leads to peace (salvation)

of Christianity, the tranquil state of a soul assured of its salvation through Christ, and so fearing nothing from God and content with its earthly lot, of whatsoever sort that is

the blessed state of devout and upright men after death

As you can see the Koine' word for peace is a lttle more coplex than you would have us to believe..

Can you see how you have to cherry pick a defination out of this grou of definations to make your narritive valid? can you not see that there is room for your interpretation and how the word peace is used is a more broad biblical sense?



From one who has truly experienced a more abundant life I know it is not free. this life more abundant is liken to the life of Joseph who still was a slave under pharaoh, than the freedom to do as you will. i have more than I could ever hope to have asked for, but these 'things' are not trophies but responsibilities I must use and invest in.

I do hope you an come up with some actual scripture to back your position and maybe a few references rather than putting us in a position to simply take your word.

Here is some more verses from John 3:

 

pisteuO, as a verb, is often in its present participle form which is pisteuOn. The present participle in Greek ALWAYS refers to continuous, repeated, customary action in a progressive, linear(on-going) present. Therefore, pisteuOn means to-keep-on, always, continuously-trusting and does not refer to a one-shot decision:

 

Hyper-Literal: (Jesus speaking to Nicodemus about the Son of Man) That(purpose) any thee one-keeps-on-trusting(pisteuOn) into Him(Son of Man)-same no he-might-be(acting upon himself under the authority of his own volition--stupidly)-a-part-of-ruin but-rather he-might-be-having zOE-life(feminine) breath-being-belonging-to-her. For thusly, He(God)-agapE-loves, thee God, thee kosmos-world as(comparative)-besides(like-this, insomuch as) thee Son of-Him(God)-same, thee unique-begotten-One, He-gives* that(purpose) any thee one-keeps-on-trusting(pisteuOn) into Him(Son)-same no he-might-be(acting upon himself under the authority of his own volition--stupidly)-a-part-of-ruin/rendered useless/put to death(i.e., if you keep on trusting into the Son you do not have the authority to screw it up!) but-rather he-might-be-having zOE-life(feminine) breath-being-belonging-to-her(right here, right now). John 3:15-16

 

"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18 NASB

 

Hyper-Literal(same verse): (starting from verse 17) (Jesus speaking)For(assigning a reason) not He(God)-from-arrange(sent out)*, thee God, thee Son of-Him-same into thee kosmos-world that(purpose) He-might-be-judging thee kosmos-world but-rather that(purpose) he(kosmos)-might-be-being-delivered*, thee kosmos-world, through(means) of-Him-same. Thee one-keeps-on-trusting(pisteuOn) into Him-same not he-has-been-being-judged: yet thee no one-keeps-on-trusting(pisteuOn) already he-has-been-being-judged seeing-that no he-has-been-trusting into thee fame of-thee unique-begotten Son of-thee God. John 3:17-18

 

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36 NASB          

 

Hyper-Literal(same verse): (the Apostle John quoting John the Baptist) “The one-keeps-on-trusting(pisteuOn) into thee Son he-is-having zOE-life(feminine) breath-being-belonging-to-her(right here, right now): yet the one-keeps-on-being-unpersuadable to-thee Son not he-shall(in the future)-be-showing-himself(middle-passive)-to-appearing-being zOE-life but-rather thee wrath(feminine), namely--of-thee God, she-is-remaining on him-same(right here, right now).” John 3:36

 

pisteuein is the present infinitive(verbal noun) of pisteuO and also refers to continuous, repeated, customary action in a progressive, linear(on-going) present:

 

Hyper-Literal: (27) Only worthily(in a manner worthy) of-thee well-message of-thee Anointed-One, be!-you-all-citizens(middle-passive) that(purpose) if-whether one(Paul)-coming*> and-also one-perceiving*>, <you-all,(i.e., if I--Paul, am coming to you-all and perceiving) if-whether one-kept-apart-from-being(absent i.e., if whether I--Paul, am coming to you-all or kept as absent)*, I-might-hear*> thee-things> concerning <you-all, perceiving-that you-all-are-standing-firm in one pneuma-breath-effect, one psuchE-breath, ones-always-together-competing(competing together for the prize) (with respect)to-thee trust of-thee-well-message; (28) and-also no ones-always-being-frightened in-nothing under(you are under them and they are against you) of-thee ones-always-instead-lying(always lying in wait in opposition to you) whatsoever(feminine) to-them-same indeed she-is in-show(demonstration, proof, evidence, sign) of-a-part-of-the-whole-of-ruin(destruction, feminine), yet to-you-all of-deliverance and-also this-thing from of-God (29) seeing-that to-you-all it-being-joyously-favored* thee-thing over of-anointed(masculine, this is speaking of their--Philippians--position as anointed), not only thee-thing into he(anointed)-same to-keep-on-trusting(pisteuein), but and-also thee-thing over he(anointed)-same to-keep-on-suffering(i.e., experiencing--vox media either good or bad. The accusative of a thing here is emphasizing the good, pleasant experiences) (30) thee same contest(for the prize) ones-keep-on-possessing such-as you-all-perceive* in me and-also now(presently) you-all-are-hearing(finding out, learning, attending to, considering, understanding through the faculty of the ear i.e., someone was then presently reading this to them) in me. Phil 1:27-30

 

Jesus.

[Joods]

OMFG can you all either snip what you aren't responding to or put that shit in hide tags? Scrolling for 10 miles just to get to two or three lines of text is really unnecessary.