Intercessory prayer is pointless

[Bucky Ball]

The dinos were here for 200+ M years; did God just get tired of them one day and decide to do them all in?  Of course, for you, this is not a serious question, but for our resident theists it should be.  If God does not cause cancer, how about asteroid impacts?

The dinosaurs were far too smart to invent god.

The dinos knew God had a plan for them. 
They didn't think they should screw it up with their dino prayers.

[robvalue]

Dinosaurs are so fucking cool. I can’t believe god got bored of them.

[RobbyPants]

Oh really ... like this Drich idiot know about god.

John 14: 14
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
ANYTHING. He said ANYTHING. He lied out his ass.

You're misinterpreting it, Bucky. You can ask him for anything, so long as it's within Drich's parameters. It's kinda like Model T Fords: you can have any color you want, so long as you want black.

[Drich]

Where in there do you see intercession? where in there aside from our daily need do you see a asking cermony/meaning where in Jesus' own example of pray is he saying it is ok to ask God for the crap you want in your life to make it easier? He doesn't.

So you're saying all the Christians in all the churches that have time carved out of every service are wrong? You're saying all the Christians privately praying for intercession are wrong?

I mean, I agree with you on that much.

I'm pointing out there is only one model of prayer. Jesus Christ himself presented it. He was directly asked "Lord, teach us how to pray." and what he came up with is what I outlined from luke 11. In essence the 'Lord's prayer' is the only outline of actual prayer. Now we also have examples of paul teaching his people to Go before God asking for their wants and needs but he identifies this not as prayer but as petition.

That said you would be shocked at how much the church does or does not do that the bible teaches the opposite on.

omnibenevolent God, no here in the bible does it says God loves everyone. in fact there is a list of those in whom God hates. God is said to Agape' which is a form of love it is conditional but ever lasting.

Eternal punishment in Hell. no where once does it say our souls will burn forever in hell. in fact it does say hell is forever and Satan will be made to burn forever not as a ruler of hell but to be punished in hell forever, for us Hell is the second death it is where the soul is destroyed. this bible and even Jesus mentions this over and over.

As a Christian you do not need or priest or prophet as a go between between you and God, We have the holy Spirit. in fact if we simply learn to Ask Seek and knock on His terms God himself via the Spirit will give you everything you need to establish and maintain faith.

The biggest one. morality. once you accept Christ you are free from the law as a means to salvation or righteousness. meaning all of God's law is boiled down to two simple commands Love God with all your being And love your neighbor as your self.

So how can the church be wrong and still be the church? because the same grace that is extended to us when we willfully sin is that more more available when we love God with all of our being and we simply fall short with our limited ability to comprehend an infinite God.. Maning if God is willing to forgive when we seek to be wrong/evil then his grace is far better spent when we get somthing wrong/misunderstand how God works when we are trying to love God with the full extent of our ablity!

[Abaddon_ire]

I'm pointing out there is only one model of prayer. Jesus Christ himself presented it. He was directly asked "Lord, teach us how to pray." and what he came up with is what I outlined from luke 11. In essence the 'Lord's prayer' is the only outline of actual prayer.

No, you are pointing out that your magic book makes that claim and that is all.

Now we also have examples of paul teaching his people to Go before God asking for their wants and needs but he identifies this not as prayer but as petition.

Yay for paul the wingnut. So what? Paul made all manner of wild claims. Is there evidence for any of them? No.

That said you would be shocked at how much the church does or does not do that the bible teaches the opposite on.

You mean like your claims?

omnibenevolent God, no here in the bible does it says God loves everyone. in fact there is a list of those in whom God hates. God is said to Agape' which is a form of love it is conditional but ever lasting.

Which makes both you and your god liars because the bible claims exactly that. Clearly, you have not read the evil book

Eternal punishment in Hell. no where once does it say our souls will burn forever in hell. in fact it does say hell is forever and Satan will be made to burn forever not as a ruler of hell but to be punished in hell forever, for us Hell is the second death it is where the soul is destroyed. this bible and even Jesus mentions this over and over.

And the consequence of that nonsense is that I have no motivation to not be an atheist. It won't matter at all.

As a Christian you do not need or priest or prophet as a go between between you and God, We have the holy Spirit.

By which you mean the unholy rapist. How does it feel for you to be an apologist for rape?

in fact if we simply learn to Ask Seek and knock on His terms God himself via the Spirit will give you everything you need to establish and maintain faith.

Been there done that. gunderscored was a no show, so fukkim.

The biggest one. morality. once you accept Christ you are free from the law as a means to salvation or righteousness.

Not according to the words of jebus in your fairy book.

meaning all of God's law is boiled down to two simple commands Love God with all your being And love your neighbor as your self.

Out go the TC.

So how can the church be wrong and still be the church?

By flat out lying like you.

because the same grace that is extended to us when we willfully sin is that more more available when we love God with all of our being and we simply fall short with our limited ability to comprehend an infinite God..

Ah. Prayers rise up to god and somehow grace drizzles down from above. Messages going side to side are right out as they might collide with the rising prayers or the descending grace. Thus the internet is evil.

And WTF does "more more" mean? Is that more more than more?

Maning if God is willing to forgive when we seek to be wrong/evil then his grace is far better spent when we get somthing wrong/misunderstand how God works when we are trying to love God with the full extent of our ablity!

"Maning" Is that some new trend in haircuts like a mullet?

Why should we attempt to love your god? As described I am far more likely to kick such a being "inna fork". As you would describe him/her/it/housecat, it deserves to die.

[RobbyPants]

I'm pointing out there is only one model of prayer. Jesus Christ himself presented it. He was directly asked "Lord, teach us how to pray." and what he came up with is what I outlined from luke 11. In essence the 'Lord's prayer' is the only outline of actual prayer. Now we also have examples of paul teaching his people to Go before God asking for their wants and needs but he identifies this not as prayer but as petition.

The computer scientist in me says that based on what you've provided, you cannot claim that this is the only model for prayer. The disciples asked for a model for how to pray and Jesus gave them one, without offering any other information as to whether or not it is the only way to pray. You could ask me how to hang and mud drywall, and I could pretty easily show you. It doesn't mean that the way I showed you is the only way to do so.

[/pedantic side-note on set theory]

That said you would be shocked at how much the church does or does not do that the bible teaches the opposite on.

...

So how can the church be wrong and still be the church? because the same grace that is extended to us when we willfully sin is that more more available when we love God with all of our being and we simply fall short with our limited ability to comprehend an infinite God.. Maning if God is willing to forgive when we seek to be wrong/evil then his grace is far better spent when we get somthing wrong/misunderstand how God works when we are trying to love God with the full extent of our ablity!

This is just a whole bunch of No True Scotsman stuff that I'm sure you believe, but there's no way you can prove. I mean, maybe you're right, but you can't prove it with an informal logical fallacy. Every Christian seems to think they're at least on the right track to doing Christianity "correctly", and they all base if off of their own particular interpretations of the Bible. Every time I've seen a Christian honest enough to admit that they can't really know if they're correct, they go right back to asserting they're correct when that conversation ends and the next one starts.

[Abaddon_ire]

This is just a whole bunch of No True Scotsman stuff that I'm sure you believe, but there's no way you can prove. I mean, maybe you're right, but you can't prove it with an informal logical fallacy. Every Christian seems to think they're at least on the right track to doing Christianity "correctly", and they all base if off of their own particular interpretations of the Bible. Every time I've seen a Christian honest enough to admit that they can't really know if they're correct, they go right back to asserting they're correct when that conversation ends and the next one starts.

And that is a problem for christianity. There exist some 30,000 different sects of christianity all of whom think they are right, all of whom are convinced that all of the others are wrong.

What does that tell us about how good a communicator their deity of choice actually is? Apparently, he/she/it/housecat was/is so crap at communication that even his followers can't agree among themselves. This alone is an indictment of the intellectual poverty of religion.

[Drich]

I'm pointing out there is only one model of prayer. Jesus Christ himself presented it. He was directly asked "Lord, teach us how to pray." and what he came up with is what I outlined from luke 11. In essence the 'Lord's prayer' is the only outline of actual prayer. Now we also have examples of paul teaching his people to Go before God asking for their wants and needs but he identifies this not as prayer but as petition.

The computer scientist in me says that based on what you've provided, you cannot claim that this is the only model for prayer. The disciples asked for a model for how to pray and Jesus gave them one, without offering any other information as to whether or not it is the only way to pray. You could ask me how to hang and mud drywall, and I could pretty easily show you. It doesn't mean that the way I showed you is the only way to do so.

it would be IF you were the man who had the power to set the standard for mudding dry wall. That's the thing here you are not taking into account. Not only did Jesus not only show any other way of praying he modeled his prayer in the garden of gethsemane before his trial after what he has shown so now he is in a tight spot, he wants to be set free of the burden of the coming cross, but in the end follows the pattern and repeat that the Father's will be done here not his own!

That said this sentiment is repeated throughout the NT first again by Christ when he speaks to the sermon of the mount he says anything you ask in prayer in my name.. citing that the simple faith of a mustard seed would could yield mountains be cast into the sea! but again the prayer had to be in his name.. Not just say: in the name of Christ I proclaim... but to ask in the name of some one is to ask for anything they themselves would as for and nothing more. So what would Jesus Ask? WWJA? point yourself back to the Lords prayer...

Not only that we have NT examples of Prayer and petition being divided.
phil 4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

paul makes a clear line between petition and prayer in that we are required to do both. if they were the same then the same greek work would have been used, but for prayer we have προσευχή proseuchē which means formal prayer (often refered to as the prayer Christ taught) and for petition/supplication we have the koine word δέησις deēsis which is seeking asking wanting supplication/wants apart from need.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/phl/...nc_1107006

prayer and supplication have been divided for a long long time and it is not till recent times did the two loose their individual meanings. However the bible does not forget and remains true to the idea that prayer and petition are not the same things despite what computer logic might have to say.

[/pedantic side-note on set theory]

That said you would be shocked at how much the church does or does not do that the bible teaches the opposite on.

...

So how can the church be wrong and still be the church? because the same grace that is extended to us when we willfully sin is that more more available when we love God with all of our being and we simply fall short with our limited ability to comprehend an infinite God.. Maning if God is willing to forgive when we seek to be wrong/evil then his grace is far better spent when we get somthing wrong/misunderstand how God works when we are trying to love God with the full extent of our ablity!

This is just a whole bunch of No True Scotsman stuff that I'm sure you believe, but there's no way you can prove. I mean, maybe you're right, but you can't prove it with an informal logical fallacy.

That's not true. You guys default to no true scotsman so quickly you do not understand the meaning anymore. With no true scotsman in order for the identification of its logical fallacy to be valid there can not exist rules on the nature of a true scotsman. EG not true scotsman like porridge.. There is no rule that says a 'true scotsman must ot like porridge. however if there is a clear set of rules defining what is and what is not a scotsman, then the fallacy does not apply if said 'man' breaks the rules.

Here in order to be forgiven by Christ found in the bible you must follow the Doctrine set by Christ and his followers found in the bible. that is how a church is defined "if two or more Gather in my Name I will be there also." So if two men try and worship God yet their efforts might only amount to a hill of beans when compared to some lifer at some mega church, those beans flaws and all are just as valid before God than a life spent in a mega church. (parable of the workers underlines this point)

Every Christian seems to think they're at least on the right track to doing Christianity "correctly", and they all base if off of their own particular interpretations of the Bible. Every time I've seen a Christian honest enough to admit that they can't really know if they're correct, they go right back to asserting they're correct when that conversation ends and the next one starts.

Here's the thing.. I'm right 100% right in saying we are all wrong AND I am 100% right in saying the same grace extended to us when we willfully sin is that much more available when we are in the mist of loving God with all of our ability and simply get it wrong. Meaning we do not have to be right because after the cross it does not matter any more. we do not live according to the law if we are in christ. we live by grace.

what does that mean? it means if God wanted to abolish Judaism and set up another morality based system of after life worthiness we would have several NT books of do's and don'ts. we would have several books of law. Rather when ask Christ said all of the law comes down to 2 points. Love God with all of your being love your neighbor as yourself. meaning if you want to be forgiven of your sins you must forgive EVERYONE of theirs/those whom have sinned against you. In those two laws all of the law is full filled/remains.

So in doing so if I love God praise and worship sing songs but don't understand how the holy spirit works or if I think God is too important for me to pray to him directly so I pray to some angel or dead church fellow.. or If I think God doesn't want me to marry someone if I preach to people of if I think God does not like drinking or I preach that he does... If I am fully convicted and my intellect bounds me to these laws or ideas then God will forgive me all the more so because I am by my foolish faith doing all that I know to do to praise and worship God. He asks for nothing more

God could give two S-es about the pomp and ceremony of all the crap we do, but values the heart felt efforts of those who do so in an attempt to try and come closer.

It's no different than you kid telling you he woves you.. you wouldn't be like "what the hell does 'wove' mean you little pos! Say the Word right or I will beat you!" No you see the effort, you see and know his limitations, you know he is doing everything he can to provide you with as much as he is able to give and more importantly the sentiment behind the effort.

This is also true for those in the church who uses it's rules and sentiment for personal gain and to crush the faith of others. God is no fool and will not be loopholed into creating passes for people who would try and use the law to their benefit! for this grace to be had you must be in the loop of atonement and forgiveness.

Keeping prayer separate from petition only help you to understand/ unlock how to become closer to God.

You wonder why God has NEVER answered a prayer?

Probably because you have never prayed to him... Jst an endless series of wishing ceremonies. petitions...

Gotta have both. you want x got to be willing to change Y

[Joods]

Where in there do you see intercession? where in there aside from our daily need do you see a asking cermony/meaning where in Jesus' own example of pray is he saying it is ok to ask God for the crap you want in your life to make it easier? He doesn't.

So you're saying all the Christians in all the churches that have time carved out of every service are wrong? You're saying all the Christians privately praying for intercession are wrong?

I mean, I agree with you on that much.

I have been to countless "Assemble of God" Churches where they lay their hands on a parishioner and pray and do exactly the thing that dripshit claims Christians shouldn't be doing. 

Maybe instead of spending so much time here, at AF, he should be going out to all the non-denominational churches and teaching them a lesson on how to properly pray.

[RobbyPants]

it would be IF you were the man who had the power to set the standard for mudding dry wall. That's the thing here you are not taking into account. Not only did Jesus not only show any other way of praying he modeled his prayer in the garden of gethsemane before his trial after what he has shown so now he is in a tight spot, he wants to be set free of the burden of the coming cross, but in the end follows the pattern and repeat that the Father's will be done here not his own!
...

What you're saying would only address what I said if and only if Jesus had also explicitly identified that as the only way to pray. He never did that, ergo, there are anywhere from zero to infinity other valid ways to pray. We simply haven't been given enough information, and you're acting as though we have.

This is how we define sets. It's a very common intersection of math and logic. It's axiomatically true. You don't get to argue against it because it goes against your world view.

That's not true. You guys default to no true scotsman so quickly you do not understand the meaning anymore. With no true scotsman in order for the identification of its logical fallacy to be valid there can not exist rules on the nature of a true scotsman. EG not true scotsman like porridge.. There is no rule that says a 'true scotsman must ot like porridge. however if there is a clear set of rules defining what is and what is not a scotsman, then the fallacy does not apply if said 'man' breaks the rules.

Here in order to be forgiven by Christ found in the bible you must follow the Doctrine set by Christ and his followers found in the bible. that is how a church is defined "if two or more Gather in my Name I will be there also." So if two men try and worship God yet their efforts might only amount to a hill of beans when compared to some lifer at some mega church, those beans flaws and all are just as valid before God than a life spent in a mega church. (parable of the workers underlines this point)

The problem is, everything you said after that part relies on one particular interpretation of the Bible. No one has ever been able to prove that their interpretation is the correct one. If one brand of Christianity is based on one person's epistemology on how to interpret the Bible, it is impossible to evaluate that brand as more or less valid than any other. You are so caught up in your own preconceptions of what Christianity is, that you cannot see your hypocrisy in claiming your views as correct and others as false.

That's what a No True Scotsman is; it's just you employing special pleading to define things to fit your world view.

Again, you don't get to argue against logic or definitions because you don't like them.