Intercessory prayer is pointless

[Drich]

So you're saying all the Christians in all the churches that have time carved out of every service are wrong? You're saying all the Christians privately praying for intercession are wrong?

I mean, I agree with you on that much.

I have been to countless "Assemble of God" Churches where they lay their hands on a parishioner and pray and do exactly the thing that dripshit claims Christians shouldn't be doing. 

Maybe instead of spending so much time here, at AF, he should be going out to all the non-denominational churches and teaching them a lesson on how to properly pray.

Can't save the saved.. It's not a sin to petition God, it's just God is not in the habit of filling petitions if you can't or won't also pray. It's a whole process Described by Jesus in the parable of the wise and foolish builder.

In essence we may have one idea about god like naming and claim crap then God sends the wind and rain and you name and claim you house will not fall, and it does, hence evidence that your idea of God is not real... In modern times foolish people think because their initial idea of God is not real their can't e a God or worse they don't have enough faith... or the have too much sin or any number of other bogus reason other than they are so far from God God is not willing to support their false idea of God. So God simply leaves the believer or leaves the church and the honest people will say there is no god here. and the idea was to go out and look some place else.

[Nay_Sayer]

It's not a sin to petition FSM, it's just FSM is not in the habit of filling petitions if you can't or won't also pray. It's a whole process Described by Cheesus in the parable of the wise and foolish baker.

In essence, we may have one idea about god like naming and claim crap then FSM sends the wind and rain and your name and claim your house will not fall, and it does, hence evidence that your idea of FSM is not real... In modern times foolish people think because their initial idea of FSM is not real. There can't be an FSM or worse they don't have enough faith... or they have too much sin or any number of other bogus reason other than they are so far from FSM. FSM is not willing to support their false idea of FSM. So FSM simply leaves the believer or leaves the church and the honest people will say there is no FSM here. and the idea was to go out and look some place else.

RAmen.

[Minimalist]

it would be IF you were the man who had the power to set the standard for mudding dry wall. That's the thing here you are not taking into account. Not only did Jesus not only show any other way of praying he modeled his prayer in the garden of gethsemane before his trial after what he has shown so now he is in a tight spot, he wants to be set free of the burden of the coming cross, but in the end follows the pattern and repeat that the Father's will be done here not his own!

And what gives this jesus character such a right?  Oh, you read it in a stupid old book.  Aren't you special, dripshit.

I'll bet fucking jesus was such a shitty carpenter that he couldn't mud dry wall, either.

[Joods]

I have been to countless "Assemble of God" Churches where they lay their hands on a parishioner and pray and do exactly the thing that dripshit claims Christians shouldn't be doing. 

Maybe instead of spending so much time here, at AF, he should be going out to all the non-denominational churches and teaching them a lesson on how to properly pray.

Can't save the saved.. It's not a sin to petition God, it's just God is not in the habit of filling petitions if you can't or won't also pray. It's a whole process Described by Jesus in the parable of the wise and foolish builder.

But they clearly aren't petitioning god. They are literally praying because they make that claim at the start of laying hands on the person getting prayed over. As you said - praying and petitioning are not the same.

[Drich]

it would be IF you were the man who had the power to set the standard for mudding dry wall. That's the thing here you are not taking into account. Not only did Jesus not only show any other way of praying he modeled his prayer in the garden of gethsemane before his trial after what he has shown so now he is in a tight spot, he wants to be set free of the burden of the coming cross, but in the end follows the pattern and repeat that the Father's will be done here not his own!
...

What you're saying would only address what I said if and only if Jesus had also explicitly identified that as the only way to pray. He never did that, ergo, there are anywhere from zero to infinity other valid ways to pray. We simply haven't been given enough information, and you're acting as though we have.

This is how we define sets. It's a very common intersection of math and logic. It's axiomatically true. You don't get to argue against it because it goes against your world view.

you are being willfully obtuse. I have shown you the disciples request to be taught how to pray. I showed you Jesus' only recorded prayer which follow the method and the nail in the coffin is the founder of the gentile church identifying only two types of 'prayers.' One being the lords prayer and one being a prayer of petition or supplication. So for the church via phil 4 and paul very own words there are but only two types of prayer petition where we ask God and prayer where we seek God's will.
There is nothing else used in the 1st century church, the rest is pomp and ceremony

The problem is, everything you said after that part relies on one particular interpretation of the Bible.

not an interpretation sport.. that is what people who are not familiar with the bible say, as they don't ever thig the bible speaks in absolutes and everything is an interpretation. As all of Christianity places Christ as the son of God and he came and died for our sins. what's more it is not enough to know this we must believe and accept this offer of restitution. This is the core of the whole bible based Christian belief system. anything out side of that I do not attempt to speak to nor for. Meaning if you seek to know of or worship the God Of the bible 'my interpretation' sums up the core of all belief concerning the God of the bible. If you do not seek to know or worship the God of the bible then you are speaking to the wrong person.

No one has ever been able to prove that their interpretation is the correct one.

Here's proof so hold on to something. Proof that we are all wrong about God to one degree or another:comes in the way of analogy Paul used to describe the differences between the churches/denominations he established and works with: 1cor 12:12 to the end of the chapter..
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ESV

In short Paul says the whole of the church is like a human body with Christ as it's head. each part of the body has a unique shape and function. for instance a hand is shaped and functions different than a foot and a foot work differently (has strengths and weakness a ear or leg may not.) So then he asks how can a hand judge a foot, because it does not serve the body and God the same way a hand might? and how ca a foot judge an eye for not doing the same work as the foot does or how can an eye judge an ear because the ear can not see what the eye see or understand God?

We are all different members of the same body all have different functions but serve the same head or master. If we are under Christ then we must simply serve God with all he has given us the ability to use to serve Him. there is no set standard, all must not work and behave like a hand, rather we must work and serve in accordance to what we have been given to understand. As a foot we must see God as a foot and server the body as feet do, as a hand we must seek and see God as a hand and serve the body and God as hands do. We are not required to see or serve God as others do but as we have been given to know God.

This again ties into the parable of the talents. This is a story jesus told about three servants who's master gave one 3 talents (one talent being a measure of gold equal to one years wage) to another he gave two and to the last he gave one (each according to their ability) after a long time the master returns and asked what did you do with the money I gave? the first who got 3 said I invested it and gain 3 more total of 6 the second said I double my money as well and the third said I know you to be a harsh man so i did nothing and buried my money so you could have everything back you gave me... The master cursed the man with one. stripped of what he was given and that was given to the man who had 6.

The take away here is to be faithful/use everything you are given by God to not only increase your station but to grow with God meaing if God gives you to the mind set of a catholic then you are to ride that church till you grow out of it and continue to seek Him, or if you are given to baptist beliefs you are to do everything you can to grown and also get closer to God. if how ever God does not lend you the capasity to grow out of but in a church then you are responsible for that. There is no set bar of acheivement we have two commands the whole of the law boils down to. Love God with all we have and our neighbors as our selves. which again because we are different members of the same body... our levels of understanding and manfest worship will all look differently. some may even say unchristian like... but again that title is something Christ awards and not something we can lable ourselves.

If one brand of Christianity is based on one person's epistemology on how to interpret the Bible, it is impossible to evaluate that brand as more or less valid than any other. You are so caught up in your own preconceptions of what Christianity is, that you cannot see your hypocrisy in claiming your views as correct and others as false.

you are not even taking the time to read what I have said! or you are too stupid to be in this conversation. dee a dee listen to me... NONE ARE VALID ON THEIR OWN MERITS!!! ALL ARE VALID THROUGH THE REDEMPTION OF CHRIST'S ATONEMENT!!! Meaning we all make mistakes in our worship but again because there is forgiveness when we sin then all Christ centered forms of worship are covered in the same attoneing grace when we worship with all of our might and simply get it wrong!

That's what a No True Scotsman is; it's just you employing special pleading to define things to fit your world view.

Again, you don't get to argue against logic or definitions because you don't like them.

so sorry sport..
but here is the defination of a no true scotsman: No true Scotsman or appeal to purity is an informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect a universal generalization from counterexamples by changing the definition in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample.

Again your poor attempt to label my efforts and explanation as a no true scotsman fails because I am not defending a universal generalization of christianity. I have pointed out what the bible defines as Christian. there are rules to christianity if one breaks a rule then they are not apart of said religion. I mention what those rules were in the beginning of this post.. if one can accept those rules then all else is moot. as Christ will forgive any other infractions IF and only if your mistakes are inline with the limits of your capacity.

Meaning we are allowed to be wrong and still be awarded salvation however this does not mean God will bless you or your work. meaning you can be saved by faith alone/never knowing God in this life, but in works and trials comes relationship/Contact with God and proof of everything you believe

[Drich]

If God is not answering your petitions learn to pray first.

Oh really ... like this Drich idiot know about god.

John 14: 14
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
ANYTHING. He said ANYTHING. He lied out his ass.

"In my name," doofus... what does that mean? It means ask for anything I would ask for or rather anything Jesus Himself would ask for... So then ask yourself what did Jesus ask for? answer? is in the "Lords prayer"/Luke 11, that is what he told his disciples when he was asked by them how to pray.

It's is like ordering a pizza for someone you can not ask for stuff on the pizza the person your order for doesn't want, nor can you rer something he did not want you to have.. You can but it then the order ceases to be his, and becomes yours. (which is up to you to make happen.. However, If you want Jesus to answer your prayer then pray as he taught us to pray, and ask for what he wants us to have!! if you want jesus to just ignore you then ask God for whatever you want.

Then further in luke 11 jesus promises to deliver the Holy Spirit when asked. So you have a whole chapter of Christ himself telling you how to ask and what to ask for in is name... How stupid are you to assume you can use his name like a credit card and get whatever you want, when clearly contextually there is a very specific way to ask and a very specific thing to ask for!!

Now when you receive the holy Spirit God can do whatever it take to cast any mountain of doubt you may have into the ocean.

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Can't save the saved.. It's not a sin to petition God, it's just God is not in the habit of filling petitions if you can't or won't also pray. It's a whole process Described by Jesus in the parable of the wise and foolish builder.

But they clearly aren't petitioning god. They are literally praying because they make that claim at the start of laying hands on the person getting prayed over. As you said - praying and petitioning are not the same.

You are right, but you can saved those who think they are saved. I been a member of christian forums since 2008.. no one thinks they have it wrong except those who know they can't possible have it right and need God to forgive them for the messed up way they worship. Ironically it is in the omission of not knowing and relying on tradition, tht makes one right with God.

The idea of the wise and foolish builder means when God abandons a faith or system of belief when the people test their faith or their faith is tested by hardship that 'god' will not be there to help them. that means their house/their faith is destroyed by the absence of God which would/should inspire those truly looking for God the opportunity to start over and try again.

[RobbyPants]

you are being willfully obtuse. I have shown you the disciples request to be taught how to pray. I showed you Jesus' only recorded prayer which follow the method and the nail in the coffin is the founder of the gentile church identifying only two types of 'prayers.' One being the lords prayer and one being a prayer of petition or supplication. So for the church via phil 4 and paul very own words there are but only two types of prayer petition where we ask God and prayer where we seek God's will.
There is nothing else used in the 1st century church, the rest is pomp and ceremony

You're 0 for 3 on this. You have given me several instances of Jesus giving me an example of how to pray. You have given me no instances of Jesus saying there is no other way to pray. I cannot break down set theory any more simply for you. You don't get to argue about axiomatic definitions of things that are and are not in sets just because you personally have decided there can only be one way to pray.

Fine me Jesus saying "this is the only way to pray" or "all other ways of praying are invalid", or stop saying things that are provably, mathematically wrong.

Here's proof so hold on to something. Proof that we are all wrong about God to one degree or another:comes in the way of analogy Paul used to describe the differences between the churches/denominations he established and works with: 1cor 12:12 to the end of the chapter..
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ESV

In short Paul says the whole of the church is like a human body with Christ as it's head...

All you've proven is Paul said those words; not that there's any truth to them.

[Joods]

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But they clearly aren't petitioning god. They are literally praying because they make that claim at the start of laying hands on the person getting prayed over. As you said - praying and petitioning are not the same.

You are right, but you can saved those who think they are saved. I been a member of christian forums since 2008.. no one thinks they have it wrong except those who know they can't possible have it right and need God to forgive them for the messed up way they worship. Ironically it is in the omission of not knowing and relying on tradition, tht makes one right with God.

The idea of the wise and foolish builder means when God abandons a faith or system of belief when the people test their faith or their faith is tested by hardship that 'god' will not be there to help them. that means their house/their faith is destroyed by the absence of God which would/should inspire those truly looking for God the opportunity to start over and try again.

Then the bible should just indicate that and not leave it up to 20,000 different interpretations for people to figure out.

[Drich]

You're 0 for 3 on this. You have given me several instances of Jesus giving me an example of how to pray. You have given me no instances of Jesus saying there is no other way to pray. I cannot break down set theory any more simply for you. You don't get to argue about axiomatic definitions of things that are and are not in sets just because you personally have decided there can only be one way to pray.

Fine me Jesus saying "this is the only way to pray" or "all other ways of praying are invalid", or stop saying things that are provably, mathematically wrong.

What are you having problems with? I have given you Paul, The father of the gentile church our church... He said there is only 2 ways to to go before God... The way Jesus prayed/formal prayer and petitions or supplications in some translation. Why can't you not accept this truth? why are you looking for loop holes?? If you belong to the church then you would be subject to the teaching of Paul. Subsequently when Paul says there are only two forms of speaking to God, prayer and supplication then that is it.. why are you looking for answers where you know the bible is silent? why not use what the bible does say? do you think God is obligated to 'fund' you just because you think you found a loop hole using broken logic? No. Jesus was directly asked How do we pray. He gave only one example. No other examples were given. However Paul when telling his church how to go before God He mentions not only Christ's prayer but... also granted us permission to also petition God. Meaning prayer is what Jesus taught, everything else we ask for is supplication.

How do you see a loop hole here?

And not to pull rank but who here has sat before God? who here has his prayers answered? who here feel he can ask in supplication absolutely anything I want and also receive it? who here even believes in God? Why can I say "me" to each and everyone of these questions???because I know how to pray, what to pray for and have lived through God directly answering my prayers. Like wise I know how God answers prayers of petition.. So why do I take the position I do aside from it is ascribed in the bible first identified by Jesus and later outlined by Paul? because I have lived it and benefited from it. nothing else was ever used or needed.

My question to you is why does it matter? are you trying to sell some mormon light tower book of prayer hokem? where if you chant this incantation God will do your bidding? seriously what does it matter to a god hating douche what God wants or says about prayer? What do you have besides misidentified fallacies do you have that there is any other type of prayer accepted before God?

Not only that do you understand the luke 11 prayer to be an out line not a chant right? meaning you fill in your own words but must touche the point Christ established.

Here's proof so hold on to something. Proof that we are all wrong about God to one degree or another:comes in the way of analogy Paul used to describe the differences between the churches/denominations he established and works with: 1cor 12:12 to the end of the chapter..
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ESV

In short Paul says the whole of the church is like a human body with Christ as it's head...

All you've proven is Paul said those words; not that there's any truth to them.
[/quote]
What I've proven is this view of the gentile chrch established by Paul and subsequently 1st century church doctrine directly off page with no interpretation added or taken away. The church and it's many different view points, is not only acceptable to the church but its primary form of reconciling the different teachings that even the apostles differed from. Even paul and peter had disagreements and this idea that we are on body and many parts healed the newly form church from it's first major schism.. the church, as peter established it demanded people to become jews before Christians/men to be circumcised, and Paul said they did not. Ultimately Paul had his say peter had his and this idea of we serve the same God let each man be convicted to do what he thinks is right be his guide.

Seriously why do you think this message takes up almost a whole chapter? and again in chapter 10 The message that let each man's heart be his own guide in worshiping God takes headlines when Paul/he speaks on all things being lawful, meaning in Christ there are no dietary restrictions, but for those in God who thinks there are restrictions on meat and or wine, then it is better for you not to eat meat or drink in front of them as they are convicted one way, and seeing you they may feel pressured to go against what they think it right.. Paul says again there is freedom in Christ and we can eat or drink anything we like but for the sake of the weaker brother he would never eat any meat or drink anything but water if it help them.

again showing different levels of understanding through out the church and learning to respect each other's views. As there was/is a great need for those of us who are free to make provision for those wh need to live by the law. now.. does this mean it is ok for those who want to live under the law to make up stuff? no. if you are to live by the law then it is by the strictest understand that one must live.

Again, what is your problem here? you don't believe in God so what does it matter what he really says? are you so proud that even in your disbelief you must have the final say on a God you care nothing for?

Will your pride not allow you to consider that maybe just maybe the reason your faith has failed, and mine has not is because like the foolish man you built your faith/house on the sand (BS understanding of God and the church) and when the trials of life came (wind and rain) your faith failed because you are wrong about prayer and in part because you were also wrong about a centralized organized church system?

Maybe the reason my version of Christian seem so foreign is because whatever it was you think was christianity wasn't even close enough for God to semi support... Clearly you believed something it was tested and no God ever showed up for you..

I was tested by the wind and rain as well, and most of my house fell down.. all except the parts that were built on the rock.. so I found some more rock and built on it, and the wind and rains came again and I had to rebuild again and again and again.. FF 25+ years and everything I am is built on the rock of truth. while you are clearly till spinning your wheels wondering why people can say there is a god, but only through your mind's eye.

I guess I am asking what do you have except broken logic that says anything you say concerning God has any merit? you don't even have a faith to point to.. so why argue something you do not understand? because logic says in your mind you are right?

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You are right, but you can saved those who think they are saved. I been a member of christian forums since 2008.. no one thinks they have it wrong except those who know they can't possible have it right and need God to forgive them for the messed up way they worship. Ironically it is in the omission of not knowing and relying on tradition, tht makes one right with God.

The idea of the wise and foolish builder means when God abandons a faith or system of belief when the people test their faith or their faith is tested by hardship that 'god' will not be there to help them. that means their house/their faith is destroyed by the absence of God which would/should inspire those truly looking for God the opportunity to start over and try again.

Then the bible should just indicate that and not leave it up to 20,000 different interpretations for people to figure out.

but what if all 20,000 version were right for those 20000 groups of people?

what if it is about doing your best and each best will be a little less than some but greater than other enough so it takes 20000 groups to encapsulate the different levels of 'best' before God?

Here something to think about what if... God's offer goes beyond those who call them selves christian?

What if for some crazy reason we do not get to decide who is and who is not christian that our ceremonies and rituals mean nothing to God and God judges us on what he knows to be the absolute truth of who we are? What if salvation is not something we obtain but something given? you know kinda like the bible says??

It would mean for some the bar gets raised by alot and for others it get lowered to the point that almost any idiot can get in?

[RobbyPants]

What are you having problems with? I have given you Paul, The father of the gentile church our church... He said there is only 2 ways to to go before God... The way Jesus prayed/formal prayer and petitions or supplications in some translation. Why can't you not accept this truth? why are you looking for loop holes?? If you belong to the church then you would be subject to the teaching of Paul. Subsequently when Paul says there are only two forms of speaking to God, prayer and supplication then that is it.. why are you looking for answers where you know the bible is silent? why not use what the bible does say? do you think God is obligated to 'fund' you just because you think you found a loop hole using broken logic? No. Jesus was directly asked How do we pray. He gave only one example. No other examples were given. However Paul when telling his church how to go before God He mentions not only Christ's prayer but... also granted us permission to also petition God. Meaning prayer is what Jesus taught, everything else we ask for is supplication.

Yeah, I read Phl 4:6. I read the surrounding passages, and I have no idea where you're getting the idea that Paul was telling people the only two ways to pray.

This kinda gets right back to what I said about interpretations. There's nothing in there explicitly limiting the types of prayer. So, maybe this is less of an issue of you not getting set theory, and more of an issue of you thinking you can infer implied meanings into the Bible.