Atheist Bible Study 1: Genesis

[tackattack]

No drich, what you're doing is ignoring my definitions of sin and evil for your definitions. You say:
Sin = ?? IDK, you don't state, but from your exegesis I'll assume you define sin as doing something against God's written law
Evil = a subset or type of sin "Evil is a deep desire to be in sin or a heavy act of sin/knowing doing something God does not want"

Where I define the 2 as
Sin - is either violating a law/revealed divine truth from God or not applying a law/revealed divine truth from God.
Evil - As classification of a whole, the opposite of good; thinking that consistently opposes divine truth either in belief and behavior

God can not sin, nor be evil because He can not be other than Himself. Man can sin or be evil, both or neither. Sin is about a particular action, evil is about a thought or judgement on a behavior. I also agree with Jor that I don't believe man can be 100% evil as a whle being. Due to the sheer amount of effort at least some amount of time would be spent being neutral. Man has the potential for sin and evil, and I believe a propensity towards evil, due to inherited nature.

With regards to Abraham and Lot's wife, et all. They sinned, sure. But we can't really judge if they were evil or not as a whole, just that during certain times they did sin which was evil at that moment.

The point you make I disagree with is " it is possible to sin and never be evil." Sin is evil. We can discuss venial sins, willful sins, mortal sins, and classify different levels of sin, but all are in opposition to God and if God IS good, thus the opposite of good is evil. ie. all sins are evil. That evil may not condemn you due to the grace of God, but I can't say it's not evil, and us mortals don't have the propensity for sin and evil.

I've derailed the Bible study enough though. To grandizer's point. Yes polytheistic Canaanites and the Jew orthodoxy consider atonement through rituals as a way to atone for sins. atonement in the modern Christian clarity would require citing other books, so I'll stay there for now and let the conversation continue, while I get back over to morality on a different thread.

[Drich]

No drich, what you're doing is ignoring my definitions of sin and evil for your definitions. You say:
Sin = ?? IDK, you don't state, but from your exegesis  I'll assume you define sin as doing something against God's written law
Evil = a subset or type of sin "Evil is a deep desire to be in sin or a heavy act of sin/knowing doing something God does not want"

Where I define the 2 as
Sin - is either violating a law/revealed divine truth from God or not applying a law/revealed divine truth from God.
Evil - As classification of a whole, the opposite of good; thinking that consistently opposes divine truth either in belief and behavior

where do you see a difference between your definition and mine?
I said sin is anything not in God's express will. Meaning if God does not say it is a sin or if we live in apart of history where God has not yet defined sin.. then a given act is not sin. Again the parable of the talents Jesus Himself says bears this out. Even so your defination of sin also bears this out.

Anything not in the express will anything meaning any act thought or deed not in the expressed will or as you said violating a law or (expressed will)/divine truth. Anything not in God's expressed will is the same as the back half of your statement (not applying God's truth) because if it is God expressed will that you do aply a given act or truth then you are indeed in sin.

The definitions are the same. i just took the general definition and made it easier to understand, you see to be checking for a transcription of the general definition.

The same is true for evil My basic definition states that evil is intentional opposition to the will of God. Itis act want or desire to be outside of God's expressed will and to seek out and dwell in your own. Evil is open rebellion to God. which is the same as saying consistent oppsition to "devine truth in act or belief.

My only distinction is I say not all sin is evil but all evil is sin. You can be i sin nand not an evil person. paul bears this lesson out in roman starting chapter 6 going through chapter 9

God can not sin,

Never said god can sin. by his nature anything God does is in his expressed will. So even if it is a sin for us it is not a sin for him. Ex taking human life, Rage and anger ect..

nor be evil because He can not be other than Himself. Man can sin or be evil, both or neither. Sin is about a particular action, evil is about a thought or judgement on a behavior. I also agree with Jor that I don't believe man can be 100% evil as a whle being. Due to the sheer amount of effort at least some amount of time would be spent being neutral. Man has the potential for sin and evil, and I believe a propensity towards evil, due to inherited nature.

when did I say anything that prompted this? or did you see an opportunity to just preach?

With regards to Abraham and Lot's wife, et all. They sinned, sure. But we can't really judge if they were evil or not as a whole, just that during certain times they did sin which was evil at that moment.

Did you even read the story? Judgement comes from God here to lot's wife as she longed for the life and people God sought to destroy and was judge by God by being turned into a pillar of salt! Lot's judgement comes later and to lot I have already backed off his judgement, so why do you press as if I am persecuting him? His daughters on the other hand do a disgracful thing and as a result they tain or known for starting a disgraceful blood line.

The point you make I disagree with is " it is possible to sin and never be evil." Sin is evil. We can discuss venial sins, willful sins, mortal sins, and classify different levels of sin, but all are in opposition to God and if God IS good, thus the opposite of good is evil. ie. all sins are evil. That evil may not condemn you due to the grace of God, but I can't say it's not evil, and us mortals don't have the propensity for sin and evil.

Is Paul evil?
Romans 7:
14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. 16 And if I don’t want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good. 17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it. 18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is not spiritual. I want to do what is good, but I don’t do it. 19 I don’t do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 So if I do what I don’t want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.

21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me. 22 In my mind I am happy with God’s law. 23 But I see another law working in my body. That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner. 24 What a miserable person I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death? 25 I thank God for his salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So in my mind I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin.

Seems to me Paul just made my point for me. or rather I copied paul's idea here and condensed it down to All evil is sin, but not all sin is evil.

I've derailed the Bible study enough though. To grandizer's point. Yes polytheistic Canaanites and the Jew orthodoxy consider atonement through rituals as a way to atone for sins. atonement in the modern Christian clarity would require citing other books, so I'll stay there for now and let the conversation continue, while I get back over to morality on a different thread.

[Angrboda]

nor be evil because He can not be other than Himself. Man can sin or be evil, both or neither. Sin is about a particular action, evil is about a thought or judgement on a behavior. I also agree with Jor that I don't believe man can be 100% evil as a whle being. Due to the sheer amount of effort at least some amount of time would be spent being neutral. Man has the potential for sin and evil, and I believe a propensity towards evil, due to inherited nature.

when did I say anything that prompted this? or did you see an opportunity to just preach?

God you are a dick, Drich. The man is a friendly fellow theist sharing his views. You can take all your talk about how Jesus was aggressive with his followers and shove it up your pie hole because you aren't simply aggressive, you're a condescending asshole. Christ and you have nothing in common.

[The Grand Nudger]

Love the "do as I say and not as I do" theory of sin, buried in all of that.

[Drich]

when did I say anything that prompted this? or did you see an opportunity to just preach?

God you are a dick, Drich.  The man is a friendly fellow theist sharing his views.  You can take all your talk about how Jesus was aggressive with his followers and shove it up your pie hole because you aren't simply aggressive, you're a condescending asshole.  Christ and you have nothing in common.

Who's jesus? the hippy jesus you created that when you fell into hard times and called out to him did not help you? or maybe the jesus this guy worships that demands Everyone submits to his particular expression/denomination of Christianity.The one that demanded he fix all non conforming christian work..

Do you know why Jesus was killed? Not God's reason but the reason the leadership (jews and romans)  nailed him to the cross?

Because he was hated. he was not nice to 'teachers' whether they worked for him (disciples) or worked against him. he held nothing back he did not play nice. to the point the Jewish leaders despite his miracles and the fact they knew he was from God demanded he be killed. why? because Jesus was going to destroy their ideology. Their livelihoods, their rank and position.

That is apart of what I do here. From most of you/atheist I am seeking to destroy the grand wizard God the Father and the notion of hippy jesus.. And replace with biblical examples. For those who believe in these notions or for those who demand all christians speak from their specific part of the body will take issue with this. (which is what I believe we have here, an elbow who think he is the head.)

What I was calling out was the return to zero speaking of moral neutrality without a scriptural anchor point is blind faith preaching. I m trying to raise the bar here This man wants to teach let him teach from scripture. I was calling out empty (no scriptural foundation) teaching. If that makes me a bad guy.. so be it. I a in good company.

Nice or not, is not the thing that matters when dealing lost souls. it is truth not personal want thought or desire that should be pair with some sort of scriptural foundation.. sure we can talk about those things but we can not in one breath be representing God's word and in the next interject our own preachiness and not separate God from our own thoughts.

The only question then is, should what I say sting? seeing as how God promised to Judge teachers 2x as hard, I say yes. better a pin prick from me than havig the hand of God come down on you.

[Angrboda]

You are not an authority, Drich. Jesus was an authority. Big difference. You're nothing but a sinful human, whose primary sin is pride. Something you have in abundance and which is what prompts a lot of your remarks. Jesus wasn't motivated by sin. Yet another big difference. Physician, heal thyself.

16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Psalms 6:16-19, KJV

[Drich]

Love the "do as I say and not as I do" theory of sin, buried in all of that.

It is good to be the boss.

We kill because our hearts demand it with no consideration or no idea how it will effect the future. God takes a life or a people to preserve this earth. Meaning if he kills he knows how that death will affect eternity. we kill because we want someone dead. God killed to bring us to this point in time... or do you not understand that humanity as a whole could have been stuck in mud huts or better yet died out if history did not unfold as it had? what if one of those people God had killed was patient zero to a zombie virus (zombie meaning any pandemic easily transmitted wiping out most if not all humanity) 

God killed a lot of nasty people who would have seen the end of the jews which would mean the end of eternity future for the rest of us.

---

You are not an authority, Drich.  Jesus was an authority.  Big difference.  You're nothing but a sinful human, whose primary sin is pride.  Something you have in abundance and which is what prompts a lot of your remarks.  Jesus wasn't motivated by sin.  Yet another big difference.  Physician, heal thyself.

16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Psalms 6:16-19, KJV

you are right I a not an authority, as Christ was but I represent authority, as Christ commissioned me. I walk in the foot step of authority. I study his example and follow it closly.. not the religious BS most of you got destroyed by but by what the bible actully says! I act and model my life after this authority. Now again from day one post one my mission statement define my involvement and limits my involvement here my adherence to this mission statement and my involvement with you all despite all the attacks to my person and even in some cases to my family show the exact opposite of personal pride. If personal pride was my motivator then I would not be able to stay on mission nor put up with the attacks.

Pride or damage to pride is why 'others' come and go. Only someone without personal pride can stand alone, in a chat full of people with nothing but ill will towards him his intelligence his personal attributes his family and his God. To be insulted and slammed day in day out no matter how much work effort and research is put in to have everything shit on all the time and never once for 6 to 20 hours a week if not more not receive anything reward or even a good word after what 5 or 6 years?? No there is no personal pride here. Do a role call and see how many of those who you all in the last 6 months or so have been blasting are still here. now ask yourself why am I if I NEVER received anything but contempt and vitriol. 

I am here not because of my pride but the pride God has bestowed on me. It is not my pride you see but the Holy Spirit in me. I take tremendous pride in being supported by the direct hand of God not only in my business but in my efforts here to see him every day to have him give me the answers and knowledge I have been given access to. no where I use it or not is sometimes on me, but the support is there. and further more I will be here so long as God supports me. because I have personally ot desire to stand against the tide. I do it because I have been empowered to do so, and nothing you can say or do will change that. Only god shifting me into another role can do this. I will stand this post till I am relieved. 

If you don't like that that too bad, there is alot of things I do not like about you too. Lord willing I will live and you will too despite all your distaste.

---

I don't think anybody is 100% evil, even if I were to accept the other ideas about sin at face value.

That is why I said not all sin is evil. evil is a case by case classification. however we are all sinful. While sin is death God understand we are not in 100% control of sin. that we are slaves to sin. which is why we have been give Christ to atone for sin. This demands everyone seek atonement/freedom from the law.

Christ atones for sin not intentional habitual self serving evil. which is all supported in scripture where as

the moral neutrality "soap box preaching" tach att was doing is a personal thought based on a works based salvation which demands everyone 'be a good person.'

Jeus says there are no good people not meaning we are bad. He means there is no one good enough. meaning you can not do enough good to get to heaven, if you are not able to do enough good then spiritual neutrality becomes false doctrine or false hope./It is not what Christ taught IE you are not worship the God of the NT bible if you think you can be good enough for heaven.

[Angrboda]

Pride or damage to pride is why 'others' come and go. Only someone without personal pride can stand alone, in a chat full of people with nothing but ill will towards him his intelligence his personal attributes his family and his God. To be insulted and slammed day in day out no matter how much work effort and research is put in to have everything shit on all the time and never once for 6 to 20 hours a week if not more not receive anything reward or even a good word after what 5 or 6 years?? No there is no personal pride here. Do a role call and see how many of those who you all in the last 6 months or so have been blasting are still here. now ask yourself why am I if I NEVER received anything but contempt and vitriol. 

You are greeted with nothing but derision and contempt because you are an egotistical moron who thinks things that are manifestly not true, not just occasionally, but frequently, and in spades. The reason you are still here I can only speculate stems from the same human flaws which infect you and every other person here, it's just in you they are greatly exaggerated, and take on the characteristic of a sickness.

Pride, n.

I. The quality of being proud.
1.
a. A high, esp. an excessively high, opinion of one's own worth or importance which gives rise to a feeling or attitude of superiority over others; inordinate self-esteem.

You do indeed suffer from pride, you believe that God himself informs your opinions on matters both pertaining to Christianity and those not. That is an extreme example of pride, and you are thoroughly guilty. I would call it a result of ego rather than pride, but regardless, your "teaching" stems from a source that Jesus' teaching did not.

I am here not because of my pride but the pride God has bestowed on me. It is not my pride you see but the Holy Spirit in me. I take tremendous pride in being supported by the direct hand of God not only in my business but in my efforts here to see him every day to have him give me the answers and knowledge I have been given access to. no where I use it or not is sometimes on me, but the support is there. and further more I will be here so long as God supports me. because I have personally ot desire to stand against the tide. I do it because I have been empowered to do so, and nothing you can say or do will change that. Only god shifting me into another role can do this. I will stand this post till I am relieved. 

You believe that, but do not know it. That you consider your belief in the source of your opinions and such is what drives you to abuse a fellow brethren, and post ridiculous shit like this. Remember that it comes like a thief in the night, and be humble, lest you be not chosen. You are prideful, Drich, and your last post is dripping with it. I'm sure people like Jim Jones and David Koresh also thought they were speaking on the basis of divinely provided wisdom, you simply place yourself in the company of madmen and loons by placing yourself on that pedestal

Yet in spite of all this, I don't fault you because I know you are not particularly bright or well educated, and that your errors and all your Dunning-Kruger inspired behaviors are unintentional. That being said, I do not forgive you of the sin you gleefully embrace such as your pride and your egotistical arrogance. Spare the rod and spoil the child. You are indeed a very badly behaved child. And I will continue to correct you when you are wrong, despite the fact that your pride prevents you from seeing the truth.

And you didn't answer my question. What 'challenge' of yours have I failed to answer and why do you consider that significant?

[tackattack]

---

No drich, what you're doing is ignoring my definitions of sin and evil for your definitions. You say:
Sin = ?? IDK, you don't state, but from your exegesis  I'll assume you define sin as doing something against God's written law
Evil = a subset or type of sin "Evil is a deep desire to be in sin or a heavy act of sin/knowing doing something God does not want"

Where I define the 2 as
Sin - is either violating a law/revealed divine truth from God or not applying a law/revealed divine truth from God.
Evil - As classification of a whole, the opposite of good; thinking that consistently opposes divine truth either in belief and behavior

where do you see a difference between your definition and mine?
I said sin is anything not in God's express will. Meaning if God does not say it is a sin or if we live in apart of history where God has not yet defined sin.. then a given act is not sin. Again the parable of the talents Jesus Himself says bears this out. Even so your defination of sin also bears this out.

Anything not in the express will anything meaning any act thought or deed not in the expressed will or as you said violating a law or (expressed will)/divine truth. Anything not in God's expressed will is the same as the back half of your statement (not applying God's truth) because if it is God expressed will that you do aply a given act or truth then you are indeed in sin.

The definitions are the same. i just took the general definition and made it easier to understand, you see to be checking for a transcription of the general definition.

The same is true for evil My basic definition states that evil is intentional opposition to the will of God. Itis act want or desire to be outside of God's expressed will and to seek out and dwell in your own. Evil is open rebellion to God. which is the same as saying consistent oppsition to "devine truth in act or belief.

My only distinction is I say not all sin is evil but all evil is sin. You can be i sin nand not an evil person. paul bears this lesson out in roman starting chapter 6 going through chapter 9

God can not sin,

Never said god can sin. by his nature anything God does is in his expressed will. So even if it is a sin for us it is not a sin for him. Ex taking human life,  Rage and anger ect..

nor be evil because He can not be other than Himself. Man can sin or be evil, both or neither. Sin is about a particular action, evil is about a thought or judgement on a behavior. I also agree with Jor that I don't believe man can be 100% evil as a whle being. Due to the sheer amount of effort at least some amount of time would be spent being neutral. Man has the potential for sin and evil, and I believe a propensity towards evil, due to inherited nature.

when did I say anything that prompted this? or did you see an opportunity to just preach?

With regards to Abraham and Lot's wife, et all. They sinned, sure. But we can't really judge if they were evil or not as a whole, just that during certain times they did sin which was evil at that moment.

Did you even read the story? Judgement comes from God here to lot's wife as she longed for the life and people God sought to destroy and was judge by God by being turned into a pillar of salt! Lot's judgement comes later and to lot I have already backed off his judgement, so why do you press as if I am persecuting him? His daughters on the other hand do a disgracful thing and as a result they tain or known for starting a disgraceful blood line.

The point you make I disagree with is " it is possible to sin and never be evil." Sin is evil. We can discuss venial sins, willful sins, mortal sins, and classify different levels of sin, but all are in opposition to God and if God IS good, thus the opposite of good is evil. ie. all sins are evil. That evil may not condemn you due to the grace of God, but I can't say it's not evil, and us mortals don't have the propensity for sin and evil.

Is Paul evil?
Romans 7:
14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. 16 And if I don’t want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good. 17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it. 18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is not spiritual. I want to do what is good, but I don’t do it. 19 I don’t do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 So if I do what I don’t want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.

21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me. 22 In my mind I am happy with God’s law. 23 But I see another law working in my body. That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner. 24 What a miserable person I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death? 25 I thank God for his salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So in my mind I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin.

Seems to me Paul just made my point for me. or rather I copied paul's idea here and condensed it down to All evil is sin, but not all sin is evil.

---

I've derailed the Bible study enough though. To grandizer's point. Yes polytheistic Canaanites and the Jew orthodoxy consider atonement through rituals as a way to atone for sins. atonement in the modern Christian clarity would require citing other books, so I'll stay there for now and let the conversation continue, while I get back over to morality on a different thread.

While we wait for the Bible study to proceed from the above point past atonement, I don't mind the exegetical exercise (also I'm not offended or hurt that we disagree, just trying to clarify that point).

Yes Paul did evil. He claims to do evil then he claims that it's his nature that is responsible.

If you're going to use non Genesis books then might I point out that your point that "I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin" Is not the entirety of the verse you cited. Please read just this in your context of defining sin and evil:
"Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. "


Sin and Evil are both things to do (an action) and are both against God's will. We are all culpable for our action come judgement day. God's nature hasn't changed from Genesis to Revelations. Hopefully we can agree on the last 3 sentences?

We do not have the perspective to judge anyone's thoughts or entire lives, that's God's realm. Can we agree on that too?

If we are in agreement on those 4 things, Sin and Evil are parts of the whole. Like the numbers in an equation. They will either add up to positive or negative. That positive or negative is colloquially call good or evil as well. Was Hitler evil, was Ghandi evil, was Paul evil? Yes. Can they all be saved by God's grace or condemned by His judgement? yes.

If your claim is that we are not responsible for committing evil because sin is responsible, you can see where atheists and theists have a problem with this. My animal instincts made me kill that person is the same as God made me kill that person and thus thwarts your entire morality.


Side note: I appreciate your exegesis and discourse and hope you can help me find out where we're not seeing eye to eye. Every part of the Body and belief has different functionality and steel sharpens steel. God doesn't give pride though, He gives the Holy Spirit the fruits of which are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

[Drich]

You are greeted with nothing but derision and contempt because you are an egotistical moron who thinks things that are manifestly not true, not just occasionally, but frequently, and in spades.  The reason you are still here I can only speculate stems from the same human flaws which infect you and every other person here, it's just in you they are greatly exaggerated, and take on the characteristic of a sickness.

-Or another possibility, is what I have shared is indeed true and God has blessed me beyond measure. To the point I feel a need to share with those in whom I shared a past with. In hopes for the one or two who has slipped through the crack will follow the truth no matter where it leads even if back to God.

Pride, n.

I. The quality of being proud.
1.
a. A high, esp. an excessively high, opinion of one's own worth or importance which gives rise to a feeling or attitude of superiority over others; inordinate self-esteem.

you failed to make the distinction I made. personal pride verse pride in service to God.
I do not deny pride, as I am proud to serve, to which there is no sin.

You do indeed suffer from pride, you believe that God himself informs your opinions on matters both pertaining to Christianity and those not.

indeed, We are supposed to be proud of our GOd and our service to Him as paul in romans 15 points out! Not only that I have a 20+ year track record to show for it! God has given me insight and basically blessed this company he entrusted me with so I could spend the lions share of my time here with you all. and still provide a very good living for myself my wife and 15 other people/employees across two different cities who's product is distributed nationally. with little to no professional business management. Pride in the fact that I do little to nothing and God sends the orders the money the credit exactly as we need it. we have big deals other compete for, simply dropped in our laps. I am extremely proud to serve God in this capacity by giving him all of my day to you all by looking up researching and compiling information if you need it. I could not do this job here on this website any other way. This has become my real job.. I just sit in my office at work to do this. and wait for the phone to ring. I can almost pick or tell god we need to wait before any more order or even which units need to go next and they all come and go when they need to. not as a matter of just survival and scrape by but to thrive and open another location, all under God's direction and by following opportunity as it presents itself.

Some douche may say this is all luck or just opportunity or I even heard I am a suvaunt/business genius.. as technically our company is 4 companies. tire shop Mobile refrigeration repair car dealership and refrigerated van upfitter. 4 different field four different business one boss. who spends 1/2 to 3/4 of the day answering bible questions.

And even so God still allowed us to build our dream house in the country, build the old cars I like, while have a literal car lot full of new and used cars for my wife to drive. and I spend my work day arguing with you.. in the name of God who has blessed me to do this task. So yeah I take pride in that. from the first 25K from a stranger, to 100's of thousands of dollars in a credit line out of the blue, to a order that took up the exact dollar amount to the fulfillment of that order almost 9 months later. I am proud of everything God has done for me because surveying all that I am. I know what you say is true. I personally am an idiot, and nothing I've done merritts the position I have been given/you see me occupying. And I know given our shared culture that is a big no,no. But here's the thing we do not worship an asian God. we do not earn our power position of level of spiritual gifts.God gives to the undeserving God blesses the simple with wisdom to confound the wise God gives to the last, to make the first wait.

With All that I am proud of God doing for me, know I do know humility. I know how to separate what God has done from the fruit of my own efforts. Paul is also one proud in what God has done for and through Him. romans 15:14 forward.

I came from nothing and know I will return to nothing. whether it be through the natural course of my life or due to a fall I have coming. But as Paul says. I know how to live when blessed with abundance and I know how to live when God takes it all away. Whether God gives or God takes I have learned to bless God's name in it all. God has taken everything but my life from me several times, and each time blessed his name for it. It has shaped my picture my understanding and my view. while people talk and speculate God has me walk through the valley and carried me though. This is not a guessing game this is not faith this is not speculation this my understanding of God was forged through faithfulness through the Spirit and all the fire and brimstone I could bear in this life... which to me is alot. maybe ot to others but it was all I could stand and again I am here because God carried me through so a I proud of that? Hell yes! Who wouldn't be? I saw hell and God pulled me out, then lived through my own personal hell and he carried me through, and each and every tie I saw another trial more and more of God was revealed.

I started this ministry one day after my anniversary while my new wife sat in rehab/jail because even then I felt like I had much to share. eve then I saw the good, I saw the promise land. now 13 years later after seeing my victory in a vision, to living my victory you think you can manipulate me into shame because you have a corrupt version of jesus and a perverted idea of humility? F-you lady. While I did not earn any of this I was shown the truth of it all and you have No idea who God is Who jesus is What humility we are supposed to have an why let aloe dare to judge another man/God's servant.

You are not in a position to do any of those things as you do not even know the foundations of right and wrong to make such a judgement let alone have the authority to levy a verdict!

 That is an extreme example of pride, and you are thoroughly guilty.  I would call it a result of ego rather than pride, but regardless, your "teaching" stems from a source that Jesus' teaching did not.

Jesus taught from the Gift and Power of the Holy Spirit. As do I.

You believe that, but do not know it.

this is why you fail. I am beyond belief. have been for a long long while. God is not a question God is not a doubt. I can access the Holy Spirit in time of need, He has made efforts to come to me via y "messenger experience" 20+ years of trial and wind and rain had made my faith/house the strongest structure one can have in this life. what's more i am not ashamed of it which is what most of you hate.

 That you consider your belief in the source of your opinions and such is what drives you to abuse a fellow brethren,

If my 'brethren' does not teach sound biblical precepts despite his personal claim to an affiliation we are not talking about the same God. You buddy introduced an islamic concept of a neutral state of morality. there are no neutral states according to Christian scripture. That sort of thing needs to be correctly swiftly if you are having a discussion with me.

and post ridiculous shit like this.  Remember that it comes like a thief in the night, and be humble, lest you be not chosen.  You are prideful, Drich, and your last post is dripping with it.  I'm sure people like Jim Jones and David Koresh also thought they were speaking on the basis of divinely provided wisdom, you simply place yourself in the company of madmen and loons by placing yourself on that pedestal

say the one with no foundation under her but the sands soon to be washed away by the winds and rain of her next trial. Again who are you to judge me and can't even fundamentally describe the authority you are judgement by.. *This is a bad comedy.

Yet in spite of all this, I don't fault you because I know you are not particularly bright or well educated, and that your errors and all your Dunning-Kruger inspired behaviors are unintentional.  That being said, I do not forgive you of the sin you gleefully embrace such as your pride and your egotistical arrogance.  Spare the rod and spoil the child.  You are indeed a very badly behaved child.  And I will continue to correct you when you are wrong, despite the fact that your pride prevents you from seeing the truth.

And you didn't answer my question.  What 'challenge' of yours have I failed to answer and why do you consider that significant?

ah! back to the old destroy the messenger invalidate the message. you are a broken record. and your personal assessment is indeed correct.. however I still succeed in life I succeed in family I succeed in my ministry. Why? because I am a dumb low educated person who's only attribute is to stay where God put me and subsequently double down anything God gives me. As a net result God is responsible for my increase God is responsible for me success God is responsible efforts. So while I can not take credit for the win I can be proud that God delivered a win despite all of the negative attributes you have rightly identifies but very poorly judged.

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where do you see a difference between your definition and mine?
I said sin is anything not in God's express will. Meaning if God does not say it is a sin or if we live in apart of history where God has not yet defined sin.. then a given act is not sin. Again the parable of the talents Jesus Himself says bears this out. Even so your defination of sin also bears this out.

Anything not in the express will anything meaning any act thought or deed not in the expressed will or as you said violating a law or (expressed will)/divine truth. Anything not in God's expressed will is the same as the back half of your statement (not applying God's truth) because if it is God expressed will that you do aply a given act or truth then you are indeed in sin.

The definitions are the same. i just took the general definition and made it easier to understand, you see to be checking for a transcription of the general definition.

The same is true for evil My basic definition states that evil is intentional opposition to the will of God. Itis act want or desire to be outside of God's expressed will and to seek out and dwell in your own. Evil is open rebellion to God. which is the same as saying consistent oppsition to "devine truth in act or belief.

My only distinction is I say not all sin is evil but all evil is sin. You can be i sin nand not an evil person. paul bears this lesson out in roman starting chapter 6 going through chapter 9

Never said god can sin. by his nature anything God does is in his expressed will. So even if it is a sin for us it is not a sin for him. Ex taking human life,  Rage and anger ect..

when did I say anything that prompted this? or did you see an opportunity to just preach?

Did you even read the story? Judgement comes from God here to lot's wife as she longed for the life and people God sought to destroy and was judge by God by being turned into a pillar of salt! Lot's judgement comes later and to lot I have already backed off his judgement, so why do you press as if I am persecuting him? His daughters on the other hand do a disgracful thing and as a result they tain or known for starting a disgraceful blood line.

Is Paul evil?
Romans 7:
14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. 16 And if I don’t want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good. 17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it. 18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is not spiritual. I want to do what is good, but I don’t do it. 19 I don’t do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 So if I do what I don’t want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.

21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me. 22 In my mind I am happy with God’s law. 23 But I see another law working in my body. That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner. 24 What a miserable person I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death? 25 I thank God for his salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So in my mind I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin.

Seems to me Paul just made my point for me. or rather I copied paul's idea here and condensed it down to All evil is sin, but not all sin is evil.

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While we wait for the Bible study to proceed from the above point past atonement, I don't mind the exegetical exercise (also I'm not offended or hurt that we disagree, just trying to clarify that point).

Yes Paul did evil. He claims to do evil then he claims that it's his nature that is responsible.

If you're going to use non Genesis books then might I point out that your point that "I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin" Is not the entirety of the verse you cited. Please read just this in your context of defining sin and evil:
"Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. "


Sin and Evil are both things to do (an action) and are both against God's will. We are all culpable for our action come judgement day. God's nature hasn't changed from Genesis to Revelations. Hopefully we can agree on the last 3 sentences?

We do not have the perspective to judge anyone's thoughts or entire lives, that's God's realm. Can we agree on that too?

If we are in agreement on those 4 things, Sin and Evil are parts of the whole. Like the numbers in an equation. They will either add up to positive or negative. That positive or negative is colloquially call good or evil as well. Was Hitler evil, was Ghandi evil, was Paul evil? Yes. Can they all be saved by God's grace or condemned by His judgement? yes.

If your claim is that we are not responsible for committing evil because sin is responsible, you can see where atheists and theists have a problem with this. My animal instincts made me kill that person is the same as God made me kill that person and thus thwarts your entire morality.

no no no... Everything you said here is based on a straw man extrapolation of the question I asked.

I asked was PAUL EVIL? NOT Did paul do evil things. You asked yourself a question to set up this preaching session. Not cool sport I asked a very specific question and it is very dishonest for you to strawman it around so you could answer something that fits your doctrinal beliefs. The question again is PAUL Evil? How specifically does Paul answer this question in the context of the following passages?
He will answer the question for you and make his own conclusion as to the nature of sin and evil which again is what I simplified when I say not all si is evil but all evil is sin!

Side note: I appreciate your exegesis and discourse and hope you can help me find out where we're not seeing eye to eye. Every part of the Body and belief has different functionality and steel sharpens steel. God doesn't give pride though, He gives the Holy Spirit the fruits of which are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

look you do not need my approval to believe what you believe. I know you are a different member which is why I said you are an elbow speaking for the head when you moved to correct me the first time. Me i was fine with you being an elbow and teaching others how to be an elbow. however since you told these guys Drich's knee's theology ust align itself with elbow theology I had to take a closer look. I found two major items in elbow theology that leads to legalism I in knee theology can not abide. Now if you want to say this is what is needed to be elbow heaven that's fine. Then I can point out the whole body is in heaven even if the elbow thinks it is the only one here.