Would They Die for a Lie?

[The Grand Nudger]

I can't help but giggle at transactional faiths. "Hey...uh....do this thing for me, and I'll totally pay you, you know..tomorrow..or maybe the next day, you know..some day."

Seems like everyone's favorite divine debtor is constantly late on his payments.....I don't know why people still lend him anything.

[Drich]

I can't help but giggle at transactional faiths.  "Hey...uh....do this thing for me, and I'll totally pay you, you know..tomorrow..or maybe the next day, you know..some day."

Seems like everyone's favorite divine debtor is constantly late on his payments.....I don't know why people still lend him anything.

show me an active one that isn't. show me one where the believer doesn't get anything for service and worship

[Jehanne]

Drich,

No one is claiming that the Romans practiced 21st-centry Western religious tolerance; rather, what modern scholars are claiming is that, 1) The Roman persecution of the early Christian communities was episodic and not widespread, 2) the persecutions were more for political reasons and not religious, and 3) of those Christians who were persecuted, just as many recanted and lived as those whom the Empire executed.  And, finally, #4, the early Christian communities embellished and exaggerated the extent of the Roman persecutions.

Dawn

[Drich]

that said mat 10 is not talking about facing execution if you keep reading Jesus lists out the people he expects you to stand up and represent his to more or less friends family anyone who would ask who's lve you would put before God. He in this statement wants you to know God is to come first even before the love you give to your parents.

[Jehanne]

that said mat 10 is not talking about facing execution if you keep reading Jesus lists out the people he expects you to stand up and represent his to more or less friends family anyone who would ask who's lve you would put before God. He in this statement wants you to know God is to come first even before the love you give to your parents.

What did thousands recant their faith in Jesus rather than face execution by the Romans?

[The Grand Nudger]

That you can't imagine a faith being anything other than transactional is a you problem, nothing to do with the existence of other types of faiths.  In any case, this "jesus" guy expects a whole lot of silly shit, huh?  That's some awfully expensive cake, if you ask me.

[Vicki Q]

I have no idea why you would refer to Dr. Carrier as being "ilk".  He is an independent scholar who has his opinions about things, but his academic credentials are foundational in the areas in which he does his research, even though his views are outside of mainstream scholarship.

By the way, the reference above is to an undergraduate textbook in New Testament criticism and not one of Dr. Ehrman's popular books.

Er.............ilk is not an insult. It means 'the same sort of thing'. So when I said, "including Earl Doherty, Richard Carrier and their ilk" I mean that I am familiar with the range of ideas of the mythicists.

I'm pretty sure that I've read that book, incidentally. If it has it's own website referencing, enlarging on the chapters, definitely. However since it's been a while, I'll look for something from him in the New Year.

I'm still very unclear about the point you're making.

---

That's pretty much all bullshit.  From the records the church didn't burn for contradicting it's own mythology we know the Romans were very reluctant to kill the couple of hundred or so martyrs killed before Diocletian (yes, before he came to the throne there were very few christians killed by the state.  The idea of martyrdom is a lie instilled by the church to big up itself and it's sense of worth).

The BBC has its critics, but it is an excellent source of summary of the state of play from experts. You are welcome to deny the consensus view, but that doesn't alter its status as the consensus view.

The Wikipedia article linked to by Jehanne earlier (!!) backs all this up.

In addition, I'd like to repeat what I said about the NT as a collection of sources on this:

If we drop any idea for textual inspiration and treat the sources the same way as any other historical documents, it's a done deal historically. Whether it's the Gospel prophecies, the Gospel narratives, the letters of Paul to churches undergoing persecution, Paul's own personal accounts, the advice from the pseudepigrapha, or the martyrs of Revelation, there is a very, very consistent picture of what people were going through.

Indeed, with the multiplicity of sources and multiplicity of forms, it's an extremely fixed point to work from.

For the reasons I outlined earlier, this is absolutely what we would expect, given our knowledge of C1 Mediterranean society. Given there's nothing miraculous about being hit for half an hour by large men with big sticks, we can safely assume that it happened.

[Jehanne]

[Drich]

[Angrboda]

Drich, if you don't mind, I'd like to actually see the documents you are referencing, not just a list of names. A list of names tells us nothing.