Would They Die for a Lie?

[Jehanne]

Drich,

What's your historical sources for the crucifixion of Peter?

[The Grand Nudger]

 You are welcome to deny the consensus view, but that doesn't alter its status as the consensus view. 

The consensus view is that christians were persecuted (the roman empire didn't exactly stay the rod, lol) ..yes, but it's also the consensus view that the picture of christian persecution as told by christians is christian folklore.  That's why the statement "the consensus view" is so facile..as it is in almost any other conversation regarding christianity and historicity.

The long and short is that "the consensus view" doesn't match the folklore or Certain Christians™ idea of what the consensus view is. This is a common state of affairs in modern christianity. There are mounds and mounds of the faithful who take comfort in the idea that there is some critical mass of historical information regarding their faith..but, if they knew the contents of that mass, they'd be utterly disappointed.

[Drich]

[Jehanne]

And, so, you accept the Acts of Peter as being an historical source?

[Bucky Ball]

[Amarok]

 You are welcome to deny the consensus view, but that doesn't alter its status as the consensus view. 

The consensus view is that christians were persecuted (the roman empire didn't exactly stay the rod, lol) ..yes, but it's also the consensus view that the picture of christian persecution as told by christians is christian folklore.  That's why the statement "the consensus view" is so facile..as it is in almost any other conversation regarding christianity and historicity.

The long and short is that "the consensus view" doesn't match the folklore or Certain Christians™ idea of what the consensus view is.  This is a common state of affairs in modern christianity.  There are mounds and mounds of the faithful who take comfort in the idea that there is some critical mass of historical information regarding their faith..but, if they knew the contents of that mass, they'd be utterly disappointed.

Considering that consensus view is the view of apologist not historians  it's worthless

[Angrboda]

[Bucky Ball]

Whoever the "Peter" is, ..... who may or may not have been one of the "twelve"
(which is already suspicious, as Mithraism included :
Virgin birth
Twelve followers
Killing and resurrection
Miracles
Birthdate on December 25
Morality
Mankind's savior
Known as the Light of the world

... he could not have been the Galilean fisherman.
All you have to do is read read the letters of "Peter". As early as the 3rd Century, their authorship was in question.
They contain highly developed theological concepts which (obviously) had not yet developed and a very fluent articulate Greek,
which no peasant Galilean would have the education to produce. Then there is the preposterous notion that suddenly Galilean peasants who never were further from home than Jerusalem,
who always met in Jerusalem, suddenly became world travelers, hopping all over the Mediterranean. Yeah... no.

[Drich]

[Vicki Q]

Er.............ilk is not an insult. It means 'the same sort of thing'.

The Wemstroms: How words turn from innocent to negative

There are mounds and mounds of the faithful who take comfort in the idea that there is some critical mass of historical information regarding their faith..but, if they knew the contents of that mass, they'd be utterly disappointed.

I half agree with this. A lot of Christians know little about things like redaction criticism or who didn't write the pseudepigrapha etc. But go below the problems with the NT as a collection of sources, and apply historical methods, and I honestly do believe it strengthens the case for Xianity immeasurably.

This is what writers like N.T. Wright and J.P. Meier are doing- proper historical process applied to NT history. When you do this, you see things in a totally different light; you understand why it makes sense to believe.

And as I said, following proper historical method, with all the different sources and types of reference in the NT, tells us that those disciples paid a heavy price for their beliefs. Whatever else might have been the case, the reality is that those disciples believed in Jesus strongly enough to pay whatever price it took.

And other thoughts of that ilk.

Have a good Xmas, everybody!