Posts: 2435
Threads: 21
Joined: May 5, 2017
Reputation:
26
RE: What made you become an atheist?
December 11, 2019 at 3:37 am
(This post was last modified: December 11, 2019 at 3:43 am by Succubus.)
(December 10, 2019 at 9:46 pm)Atomic Lava Wrote: (December 10, 2019 at 3:08 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: So, as a follow up to my post #19, let me ask you a question. This will relate to belief, not knowledge.
Given that 'belief' is defined by cognitive scientists and philosophers of mind as, the psychological state in which one accepts a premise or proposition as being true. In other words, if one accepts a premise or proposition as being true, they can be said to believe said premise or proposition.
Also, given that belief is a binary mental state*, i.e., one either accepts a premise or proposition as being true, or they don't accept it as being true, do you accept the premise that a god exists as being true?
*I have yet to have someone coherently explain how one could possibly be in some middle ground between accepting a premise as being true, and not accepting it as being true, simultaneously.
Quote:Very interesting. I don't think I am arguing that there is a God. However all I am saying is I am not all knowing - therefore I don't know everything. So how can I possibly know for sure if there is one or not? Of course that is my attitude towards it. And I have mets lots of people throughout my lifetime that share this same approach as well. You make some great points. I respect your thoughts. You seem like a good guy.
Rather than restate your opening post why not respond to the rebuttals to the agnostic position?
It's amazing 'science' always seems to 'find' whatever it is funded for, and never the oppsite. Drich.
Posts: 67192
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: What made you become an atheist?
December 11, 2019 at 4:29 am
(This post was last modified: December 11, 2019 at 4:34 am by The Grand Nudger.)
No particular reason, OP, been this way forever. I am interested in why you would have to be all-knowing..though, to know whether the gods human beings created for stories are out there in the cosmos doing stuff.
That doesn't seem like an "everything" proposition. It's just the one thing. A bit like claiming to be an agnostic a-werewolfist, for the same reason. I don't know everything, so how can I now that one thing..about whether or not there are werewolves?
Doesn't make any sense. "I don't know everything, therefore I can know nothing". How do you know your name? You don't know everything - maybe your true name is something other than what you've been calling yourself too? You can't really say for sure what your name is, you just don't believe it's something different, I assume?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 3634
Threads: 20
Joined: July 20, 2011
Reputation:
47
RE: What made you become an atheist?
December 11, 2019 at 11:15 am
(December 10, 2019 at 9:46 pm)Atomic Lava Wrote: (December 10, 2019 at 3:08 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: So, as a follow up to my post #19, let me ask you a question. This will relate to belief, not knowledge.
Given that 'belief' is defined by cognitive scientists and philosophers of mind as, the psychological state in which one accepts a premise or proposition as being true. In other words, if one accepts a premise or proposition as being true, they can be said to believe said premise or proposition.
Also, given that belief is a binary mental state*, i.e., one either accepts a premise or proposition as being true, or they don't accept it as being true, do you accept the premise that a god exists as being true?
*I have yet to have someone coherently explain how one could possibly be in some middle ground between accepting a premise as being true, and not accepting it as being true, simultaneously.
Very interesting. I don't think I am arguing that there is a God. However all I am saying is I am not all knowing - therefore I don't know everything. So how can I possibly know for sure if there is one or not? Of course that is my attitude towards it. And I have mets lots of people throughout my lifetime that share this same approach as well. You make some great points. I respect your thoughts. You seem like a good guy.
You completely missed what I was asking.
I specifically asked about a belief or disbelief, not about what you claim to know or don't know. Do you understand the difference between knowledge and belief?
I also do not claim to know that there is no god, as I also am not all knowing. Atheism is not a position about knowledge, it is a position concerning belief.
In fact, the vast majority of atheists do not claim to know there is no god. This even applies to guys like: Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Matt Dillahunty, and all the most famous atheists. None of them claim to know that a god does not exist.
I am asking what you believe or disbelieve.
Are you convinced that a god exists?
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
Posts: 46117
Threads: 538
Joined: July 24, 2013
Reputation:
109
RE: What made you become an atheist?
December 11, 2019 at 11:45 am
^This. Ultimate knowledge isn't a requirement for atheism. I also don't believe in breeding populations of six-legged rhinos in the Antarctic. I lack this belief because no compelling arguments or evidence have been presented for these animals. This doesn't make me agnostic about them.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
Posts: 13901
Threads: 263
Joined: January 11, 2009
Reputation:
82
RE: What made you become an atheist?
December 11, 2019 at 1:52 pm
(December 10, 2019 at 9:46 pm)Atomic Lava Wrote: Very interesting. I don't think I am arguing that there is a God. However all I am saying is I am not all knowing - therefore I don't know everything. So how can I possibly know for sure if there is one or not? Of course that is my attitude towards it. And I have mets lots of people throughout my lifetime that share this same approach as well. You make some great points. I respect your thoughts. You seem like a good guy.
Do you currently have a belief in a god.
If you don't then you are an atheist.
If you don't know whether a god exists or not then you are an agnostic atheist.
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
Posts: 2435
Threads: 21
Joined: May 5, 2017
Reputation:
26
RE: What made you become an atheist?
December 11, 2019 at 2:34 pm
(December 11, 2019 at 1:52 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: (December 10, 2019 at 9:46 pm)Atomic Lava Wrote: Very interesting. I don't think I am arguing that there is a God. However all I am saying is I am not all knowing - therefore I don't know everything. So how can I possibly know for sure if there is one or not? Of course that is my attitude towards it. And I have mets lots of people throughout my lifetime that share this same approach as well. You make some great points. I respect your thoughts. You seem like a good guy.
Do you currently have a belief in a god.
If you don't then you are an atheist.
If you don't know whether a god exists or not then you are an agnostic atheist.
Erm, if you don't know then you don't believe.
It's amazing 'science' always seems to 'find' whatever it is funded for, and never the oppsite. Drich.
Posts: 13901
Threads: 263
Joined: January 11, 2009
Reputation:
82
RE: What made you become an atheist?
December 11, 2019 at 2:39 pm
(This post was last modified: December 11, 2019 at 2:40 pm by downbeatplumb.)
(December 11, 2019 at 2:34 pm)Succubus Wrote: (December 11, 2019 at 1:52 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Do you currently have a belief in a god.
If you don't then you are an atheist.
If you don't know whether a god exists or not then you are an agnostic atheist.
Erm, if you don't know then you don't believe.
That was my point.
I think I was responding to the other fella and got you by mistake.
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
Posts: 67192
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: What made you become an atheist?
December 11, 2019 at 4:20 pm
(This post was last modified: December 11, 2019 at 4:22 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Most people are agnostics, even theists. They don't know that there's a god - not even privately. They just believe there's a god, hope there's a god, etc.
I'm sure we could find one to offer up some pious prattle to the contrary - but it would be pointless. Doubt and uncertainty are ubiquitous human attributes.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 2872
Threads: 8
Joined: October 4, 2017
Reputation:
22
RE: What made you become an atheist?
December 11, 2019 at 5:31 pm
Theists often complain about the Santa/God comparison.
Oddly, some forty odd years ago that is exactly what started me down the path to atheism. Back then, when I was in single digit ages, the rumour spread like wildfire about the schoolyard that santa was not real. It was all make believe. A great childhood disappointment, to be sure.
Being of a logical frame of mind even at such a tender age, after getting over the shock of such a revelation, my logical thoughts kicked in. "If Santa is not real and it is all grown ups pretending, what of God?" I asked myself. I did a quick inventory of the facts claimed about Santa and the facts claimed about God. Turns out they are surprisingly similar. Christians really hate that because it equates their god with an imaginary figure, as I found out. Despite parental oprobrium for even making such comparisons, I persisted in private and spent much of my teen years exploring every supernatural idea I could find. You name it, I did it.
And I found that all of them had one thing in common. They all had exactly zero credible evidence.
So today, I can cast your astrological chart, read your Tarot cards, manipulate your aura, balance your chakras, dowse, I Ching like a pro, operate a ouija board, perform a seance, induce past life regression, and on and on and on.
And all of it is superstitious bollocks.
I did, however, have a leg up in all of that. In his spare time, my father was a stage magician. And he passed some of that on to me. He taught me that the objective is not to fool people, it is to allow them space to fool themselves. Now, apply that lesson to any religious sect of your choice. Nuff said.
Posts: 44
Threads: 5
Joined: November 2, 2019
Reputation:
2
RE: What made you become an atheist?
December 11, 2019 at 5:43 pm
(December 11, 2019 at 11:15 am)Simon Moon Wrote: (December 10, 2019 at 9:46 pm)Atomic Lava Wrote: Very interesting. I don't think I am arguing that there is a God. However all I am saying is I am not all knowing - therefore I don't know everything. So how can I possibly know for sure if there is one or not? Of course that is my attitude towards it. And I have mets lots of people throughout my lifetime that share this same approach as well. You make some great points. I respect your thoughts. You seem like a good guy.
You completely missed what I was asking.
I specifically asked about a belief or disbelief, not about what you claim to know or don't know. Do you understand the difference between knowledge and belief?
I also do not claim to know that there is no god, as I also am not all knowing. Atheism is not a position about knowledge, it is a position concerning belief.
In fact, the vast majority of atheists do not claim to know there is no god. This even applies to guys like: Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Matt Dillahunty, and all the most famous atheists. None of them claim to know that a god does not exist.
I am asking what you believe or disbelieve.
Are you convinced that a god exists? Oh I see what you are saying. I did miss it. So I do apologize. And no, I am not convinced a God exists.
|
