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Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
#51
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
(September 28, 2020 at 12:44 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: We wouldn't call necessary evil necessary evil if it were good.  The notion of a sum good (or a sum evil) is a credible position..but, as the name implies, it works by tallying up specific goods and evils, not by declaring all constituent parts goods on account of the sum.  Incoherent aside from a frank acknowledgement of the evil side of the ledger.

I agree with you that life will ignore morals to live - I think that whatever compels us to do that is a better candidate for sin than sex or competition.  Life being willing to do the wrong thing doesn't make the thing less wrong, and doesn't even help to build the case of a necessary evil.  Life will do the wrong thing to live even when it isn't necessary.

That, right there, is the essence of sin.  The will to do wrong even when you could do right.  Even when doing wrong harms you.

I call necessary evil, necessary evil, because that is what it is. If it were good, I would name it that, which I do, in the context of extinction being the other choice. Do you offer some other word?

As to your last.

Give a proof of concept with a real life example. We tend not to hurt ourselves.

Regards
DL
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#52
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
We harm ourselves all the time. We're a rolling catastrophe, lol.

Sin compels a person to harm themself when they cheat, even though they could have won legitimately - or to compete in the first place when they could have cooperated - to use your competition context.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#53
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
(September 29, 2020 at 1:01 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: We harm ourselves all the time.  We're a rolling catastrophe, lol.  

Sin compels a person to harm themself when they cheat, even though they could have won legitimately - or to compete in the first place when they could have cooperated - to use your competition context.

Why would one cheat if one knows they will legitimately win?

How does one hurt oneself by winning, even if the win includes cheating?

Getting caught is the only problem.

Evolution has us default to the good, cooperation, as that is the best survival technique. We win by making friends. The fittest will have the most friends as far as our DNA knows.

Regards
DL
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#54
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
(October 6, 2020 at 2:04 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Why would one cheat if one knows they will legitimately win?
Whether they can and whether they know that, different beasts entirely, but look at us negotiating over whether or not cheating makes more sense based on how we might or might not win.   You could repeat the "why do we as people do this bad dumb thing that we do" ad infinitum - one answer to that question, is sin.  

Quote:How does one hurt oneself by winning, even if the win includes cheating?
A moral system concerns itself with moral harms.

Quote:Getting caught is the only problem.
That would only be coherent with an immoral or amoral system.

Quote:Evolution has us default to the good, cooperation, as that is the best survival technique. We win by making friends. The fittest will have the most friends as far as our DNA knows.

Regards
DL
That's not how any of that works, and this amounts to another strange belief that you have.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#55
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
Quote: Then the compulsion to mate, in your telling - right or wrong- , is sin.

Mating was God's first commandment to man in Genesis 1:28 - Be fruitful and increase in number.

The problem is our sin - we are unable to follow this directive according to his guidelines.

Quote: If Jesus/Yahweh did not want us to sin, he would not have put Satan in Eden to insure we did and Christians could not call Adam's sin a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.
Simple logic and reason.

There is nothing good about sin. It is not a happy fault.

“Be a sinner and sin strongly, but more strongly have faith and rejoice in Christ.” Martin Luther

I don't think the first half of that sentence is an encouragement to sin as much of an indictment. I have to admit his wording is rather wonky - maybe it sounded better hundreds of years ago!
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#56
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
(October 7, 2020 at 5:48 pm)runewell Wrote:
Quote: Then the compulsion to mate, in your telling - right or wrong- , is sin.

Mating was God's first commandment to man in Genesis 1:28 - Be fruitful and increase in number.

The problem is our sin - we are unable to follow this directive according to his guidelines.

Quote:If Jesus/Yahweh did not want us to sin, he would not have put Satan in Eden to insure we did and Christians could not call Adam's sin a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.
Simple logic and reason.

There is nothing good about sin.  It is not a happy fault.

“Be a sinner and sin strongly, but more strongly have faith and rejoice in Christ.” Martin Luther

I don't think the first half of that sentence is an encouragement to sin as much of an indictment.  I have to admit his wording is rather wonky - maybe it sounded better hundreds of years ago!

As in most things, context is important. Here is the relevant passage from the letter that everyone snips that quote out of:

Quote:If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong [or sin boldly], but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

Luther was plainly encouraging people to sin to make the self-sacrifice of Jesus more meaningful. He wanted people to sin so they would pray very, very hard to be forgiven. In his view, if people don’t sin, God cannot exercise either justice or mercy. What use is a forgiving God if there is nothing for him to forgive?

I know it sounds crazy, but there’s a very good reason for that: Martin Luther was insane.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#57
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
Wow thx boy did the OP cherry-pick that sentence.
Reply
#58
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
(October 6, 2020 at 5:43 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: That's not how any of that works, and this amounts to another strange belief that you have.

Strange to those who do not recognize the way evolution works for tribal creatures like us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LIb22-5Lwg

Regards
DL

(October 7, 2020 at 5:48 pm)runewell Wrote: There is nothing good about sin.  It is not a happy fault.
You show that your god would create something evil that hold nothing good.

Impossible in our dualistic universe.

The law is the most important part of the bible and god to Christians.

You would eliminate the law that Christianity says should be followed.

If we did not sin, we would not need laws or gods and you would be wasting the so called sacrifice of Jesus.

Not a bad idea given that substitutional punishment is immoral in all eyes that can see.

Regards
DL
Reply
#59
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
Understanding what is natural, in this case evolution, does not certify what is or is not right. We're having a conversation about the latter in the case of sin, not the former.

I don't know that it's a fact that evolution has us trend toward cooperation, or that we can say in any unqualified way that cooperation is the best survival technique - but even if we assume that it were, and is, this is not a comment about morality, but about what is natural.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#60
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
Indeed, to conflate evolution with morality smells of the naturalistic fallacy (not be confused with appeal to nature fallacy). I think I understand sin a bit more, but there are probably more gaps than I'd like.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard P. Feynman
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