(September 23, 2020 at 3:43 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: You must be a lot brighter than I,

at least your cognitively observant. the fact that i go line by line and address every point while you mask your answers and avoid my questions by providing one response shows either intellectual laziness or or inability to discuss the finer points a general discussion like this may create.

Quote: even though you positing that a genocidal prick of a god is somehow a good god,

hey dummy i shown your society is actively participating in the genocide of the islamic state ad you are the direct beneficiary of the native american genocide. so you have no right to judge genocide as evil.

Quote:which shows that even the bright can have satanic morals.

it only shows hypocrisy in the standards of man. that only he can decide to whom it is ok to commit genocide against, and whom it is not ok to kill off. even an all knowing God who has a race of evil men who could potentially destroy the earth and everyone on it prematurely. even a being with that great of knowledge of the future can not be trusted to kill these eveil men EVEN though the hypocrite knows nothing about them. why? because the hypocrite sees himself in this evil and know if he were alive then he would be one of these men slated for genocide. it's a joke when you guys use genocide as a measure against god when you have killed billions to what god's hundreds of thousands? let's say millions or even 100s of millions.. this generation alone since 1980 has killed 1.5 billion babies in the womb alone. not counting the people we war against.. get off your high horse.

Quote:If evolutionary demands for competition are not the source of all human to human evil, bright boy,  what is?

how stoo-ped are you? evolution knows no evil. those who can adapt live those who can not die out. this is not sin or evil doom-mas. evil is corruption of the spiritual, it has nothing to do with how our bodies work.

Regards
Drich

Can't tell a christian that their superstitions might actually pertain to something true and profound - nope, gotta be pixies.

(September 23, 2020 at 6:05 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

Quote:

(September 23, 2020 at 5:35 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: We are universalists and do not discriminate against gays and women without a just cause the way Christians do.

When you say "we," are you referring only to your current group of gnostics? Or is this true of gnostics in general, all the time?

Gnostics are, in a sense, the black sheep within Christianity and other religions.

Like Jesus, we are more of god's sheep dog and are duty bound to try to have ideologies and theologies progress to seeking god the way all good traditions teach.

Finding God, as holy books say, is deadly, but his best rules and laws can be dithered out.

Gnostics, as the intelligentsia of old, was very good at that, using logos. That is why the inquisitions killed us to promote their vile mythos and supernatural mind killing con man garbage.  
 
We, in a sense, are the ones being discriminated against in all cases because we put ourselves there. We generate though and most are too mentally lazy to bother doing so. Hence our sheep dog role of nipping at peoples heels.

Few can do this, while many would like to.
 

Quote:One thing that seems safe to say about gnostics: there was a wide variety. Differences of opinion among gnostics were even wider than among the early Christians, at least at first. I don't know, maybe you guys have reached consensus by this time. 

We have.

We, as the intelligentsia, have chosen logos over mythos. We are esoteric ecumenists and naturalists. We have condemned the genocidal god to hell. 
 

Quote:Christians haven't yet reached an overall consensus regarding gay people. More and more Christians say they're fine. My niece's church says on its home page that they're happy to do gay weddings. 

In general, gnostics hold that matter is evil and spirit is good. In many cases this has led to skepticism concerning bodily pleasures. Asceticism, including a rejection of both gay and straight sex, was not unusual. 

That we hate matter is one of many lies the inquisitors put into history to justify their mass murders.

To a Gnostic, our minds are everything. It needs matter. So does the spark of god/life. 

Let me speak to the lie of Gnostic Christians hating matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religions originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.

The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
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The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Quote:Can you point to any early gnostic texts (say, first or second century) that address homosexuality? Scholarly secondary sources would also be interesting.

It is implicit in the overall ideology. It is inferred and rather obvious.

What do religions sell? Love and forgiveness. For a high price, and most begin selling that by proposing a better way to salvation with a focus on the moral tenet of doing unto others in a reciprocal way.

If love is to rule and direct our thinking, first and foremost, then sexual matters must take second place.

Homophobia ignores love and places sex above it.

Homophobia is thus proven to be anathema to religions and morals.

It would deny souls love because of sex.

Homophobia divides when love is supposed to come first and unite. 

Gnostics have tied god's righteousness to equality for all people as god would create us all equal.

Homophobia and misogyny are not righteous traits. That is why most civilized countries will reflect that in their legislation. 

Regards
DL  

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(September 23, 2020 at 6:16 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote:

(September 21, 2020 at 11:44 am)Greatest I am Wrote: Jews just say Eden was a success for both man and god, while Christians see both man and god as losers who cannot get things right.

Jews brand Eden Original Virtue, while Christians brand it Original Sin.

Christians usurped the Jewish god but scrapped the ideology.

I am no expert on Jewish theology, but I agree that "original sin" was considered a mixed blessing even by the writers.  It wasn't all bad.

In the garden, Adam and Eve were like children.  Taking the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil made them moral and intelligent agents.  The punishment of "the fall" was to prevent mankind from being rivals to the gods themselves (yes, plural).

Its a bit of a fun fairy tale, if so much bad didn't come out of people taking it literally.

You have a decent grasp on things.

I agree that faith and supernatural belief that comes from the literal reading of myths is evil.

In fact. I have this piece that is near ready to post as an O.P.

I will accept any advice.

---------
Religions and supernatural beliefs are the enemy of world peace, as shown by 5000 years of war.

Supernatural believing faith-based religious hierarchies have been lying so much to their people that the more vulnerable of their people actually believe the --- mythical, allegorical, imaginary icons that they are persuaded,--- against all logic and reason, --- to believe in as real. That is abuse to a mind.

A mind is a person’s most treasured possession and to allow liars and con men to effect and infect so many minds, --- should be made illegal, as well as a sin, --- but of course, --- the world is not ready for a moral religious lesson.
 
Logic, reason, logos, intelligent thinking, --- it seems, --- are no match against the vile con men who run the religions and the mythos they and the faith poison they use to damage precious minds.
 
We and our ancestors have paid a high price to the religious con men that have damaged so many minds. A huge price in minds, cash as well as; world peace.

Those con men should be censored.

Religions are a good thing. They have just forgotten that they were created to produce peace.
 
Not the God damned God produced 5,000 years of our war filled history.

While those same religions oppressed non-believers, women and gays. As the majority, the religious also impose poverty.

The supernatural belief fostered by the mainstream, --- immoral, homophobic, and misogynous religions, --- and their con men hierarchy, --- are not a friend to peace.

They should be outlawed as soon as possible.

This would allow what Jesus preached in terms of electing a human God.

Human Gods can make peace and I suggest we elect one, as in the Roman System, democracy; to bring peace to the world that we are God damned destroying for our children.

Their precious minds are in your hands.

Logos or mythos must be chosen by all.

Peace wants Logos, not mythos, faith, or an unproven supernatural concept of any kind.

Trust the method for peace that Jesus preached. Elect a God. A man. Jesus asked his people if they had forgotten that they were Gods.

Most had, but not the Gnostics who had taught the Roman Jesus.

Be a Gnostic and recognize the evil of religions, as well as the good parts.

I would prefer to focus on the good, but my love has created a great hate for the religious con men who harm so many.

That hate forces me to call them out, even as I recognize the need for community churches. Less so now as in the past.

Our world cannot afford to lose good minds to religious faith based supernatural thinking that is helping to destroy our world.

Peace and decent morality would like to prevail.

Be decent parents and people and tell your children that there is nothing to fear from the supernatural, because there is only good, in what you can imagine somehow; even if you do not see it in your imagination immediately. Think dreams.

Minds are too precious too allow frivolous impairment. Save yours by discarding faith without facts and the imaginary supernatural realm.

Please.

Regards
DL

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(September 24, 2020 at 6:01 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(September 23, 2020 at 4:57 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: ??

There are no evil or sinful sexual fantasies if it is consentually based.

I cannot speak for the other type.

The urge to mate would be sin, not sex of any particular kind.   The thing that compels, not the thing you do on account of it.  All things derived from that urge would be sinful things, all evil.  Consent, no consent, samesies.

Quote:As to your understanding, not surprising. We were more in competition for the supremacy of ideas that cooperating.

Which begs the q...who am I trying to fuck?  If the urge to mate is sin as you describe, and this is what engenders conflict in human beings, which is our barometer for evil....who's the lucky girl?

Quote:As a Gnostic Christian, I find it fairly easy to see and use analogues terms between the various ideologies and theologies. Sin, crime, evil, bad, --- while each has it's specific definition, when I balance things out, they are all on the same side.

Perhaps, and I hope, that that penchant is what made the older Gnostic sects more moral than Christians as it allowed us to see Yahweh for the prick he is.

Regards
DL

That's the general notion, yeah, that all of these things are related.  Sin is the thing that compels us to evil, bad is a descriptor for those things, and crime is a subset for which we have laws.  Seeing as how all of these concepts are immensely consequential in our lives, we should probably have an accurate understanding of them, and I don't think that fingering the urge to mate as sin is that description.  

In the wider view, sin as intrinsic to human beings, you couldn't be more moral™ on that count.  You have a different religion, but you still have the urge to mate which still drives you to competition.

Let's analogies.
We are evolved from a primate line. What in their troupes causes the most conflict and chaos? What disturbs the peace the most and causes the most evil?

I would say reproduction. 

It is also in most animal species.

We are no different. 

Don't mess with a naturalist.  

Regards
DL

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(September 24, 2020 at 8:06 am)Sal Wrote: This is quite interesting.

Do y'all think that instincts, particularly those who we only have a partial control over, be considered sinning when those instincts (like the urge to mate) has a harmful outcome? I feel like I'm missing something about sin, that I'm not quite getting.

You control your instincts?

I doubt it. Not that you cannot control some outcome, we have some free will.

Tell us how you control your instinct to flinch and duck, as an example, when, let's say a bird flies by your head.

Pick some other if you do not like my suggestion.

Regards
DL

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(September 24, 2020 at 9:08 am)Grandizer Wrote: Or an act of divine grace (per their theology).

Nevertheless, as Bel pointed out, Gnostics come in various shapes and sizes, and it's the same with "non-Gnostic" Christians.

As per their theology, Yahweh denies grace where he chooses and that is why so many Christians argue that we have no free will.

If the theology is right, we have no free will.

Grace is a garbage term as it has never shown itself to be real.

You hide behind mythos so as to hide from reality and logos.

I put a piece on the harm to minds that literalism and supernatural beliefs do. Please have a look.

Anytime you wish to compare good Gnostic morals to evil Christian ones, lets do so.

Regards
DL

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(September 24, 2020 at 1:26 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Can't tell a christian that their superstitions might actually pertain to something true and profound - nope, gotta be pixies.

I do not recognize that term.

Can you rephrase your though so that I might see your POV?

I think I agree but being French, I do not know all English terms.

Regards
DL

---

Dritch

"so you have no right to judge genocide as evil."

I see.

You have a right to judge but I do not.

I see that the Golden Rule is not a part of your moral code, you pathetic piece of human genocidal god loving garbage.


Three Cheers for Genocide.

Regards
DL

(September 25, 2020 at 11:34 am)Greatest I am Wrote: Let's analogies.
We are evolved from a primate line. What in their troupes causes the most conflict and chaos? What disturbs the peace the most and causes the most evil?

We're also evolved from fish.  Laying aside the futility of pointing to other animals - sin would not be the thing that disturbs the peace, sin is the reason that we desire the thing that disturbs the peace.  

Quote:I would say reproduction. 

It is also in most animal species.

We are no different. 

Don't mess with a naturalist.  

Then the compulsion to mate, in your telling - right or wrong- , is sin.  I really don't have anything to add here that I haven't already discussed.  I don't think it's a good description of sin.  Sin seems to be operative even when the desire to mate is not.  Additionally, the compulsion to mate as sin leaves all mating creatures evil by default, which is going to be an even harder sell when we get into the specifics of this or that organism's reproduction.  Whole lotta sinful grass out there filling the wind with evil seed.

@Greatest I am please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that I control instinct any more I'm saying that choose when to sneeze.

Although some instincts have an overwhelming hold on our behavior, others do not have the same hold on my agency - I can choose when I piss given the urge (for as long I'm able to hold it in). I'd like a better grasp on this, from my POV, esoteric concept of sin.

...

Also, some opinions on 2 things you mentioned about banning as per criminalization under the law and censorship struck me as counterproductive. Censoring people, in this case Christian theology, would just push it underground, unchallenged. Criminalization would have a similar effect.

(September 25, 2020 at 12:30 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(September 25, 2020 at 11:34 am)Greatest I am Wrote: Let's analogies.
We are evolved from a primate line. What in their troupes causes the most conflict and chaos? What disturbs the peace the most and causes the most evil?

We're also evolved from fish.  Laying aside the futility of pointing to other animals - sin would not be the thing that disturbs the peace, sin is the reason that we desire the thing that disturbs the peace.  

Quote:I would say reproduction. 

It is also in most animal species.

We are no different. 

Don't mess with a naturalist.  

Then the compulsion to mate, in your telling - right or wrong- , is sin.  I really don't have anything to add here that I haven't already discussed.  I don't think it's a good description of sin.  Sin seems to be operative even when the desire to mate is not.  Additionally, the compulsion to mate as sin leaves all mating creatures evil by default, which is going to be an even harder sell when we get into the specifics of this or that organism's reproduction.  Whole lotta sinful grass out there filling the wind with evil seed.

The compulsion to mate is not evil. It is natural. The competing is what creates the evil as a loser is created.

Even if you want to call it evil or a sin, it is necessary to our continuing existence. I small evil within a greater good must be seen as good as it is necessary.

Regards
DL

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(September 25, 2020 at 1:04 pm)Sal Wrote: @Greatest I am please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that I control instinct any more I'm saying that choose when to sneeze.

Although some instincts have an overwhelming hold on our behavior, others do not have the same hold on my agency - I can choose when I piss given the urge (for as long I'm able to hold it in). I'd like a better grasp on this, from my POV, esoteric concept of sin.

...

Also, some opinions on 2 things you mentioned about banning as per criminalization under the law and censorship struck me as counterproductive. Censoring people, in this case Christian theology, would just push it underground, unchallenged. Criminalization would have a similar effect.

If we are to not criminalize poor behavior, then we may as well scrap all laws.

When the vile mainstream religions who push homophobia and misogyny create so much harm to so many, to not outlaw it is immoral.

Any institutionalized discrimination without a just cause should be outlawed.

Regards
DL

(September 28, 2020 at 11:35 am)Greatest I am Wrote:

(September 25, 2020 at 12:30 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: We're also evolved from fish.  Laying aside the futility of pointing to other animals - sin would not be the thing that disturbs the peace, sin is the reason that we desire the thing that disturbs the peace.  

Then the compulsion to mate, in your telling - right or wrong- , is sin.  I really don't have anything to add here that I haven't already discussed.  I don't think it's a good description of sin.  Sin seems to be operative even when the desire to mate is not.  Additionally, the compulsion to mate as sin leaves all mating creatures evil by default, which is going to be an even harder sell when we get into the specifics of this or that organism's reproduction.  Whole lotta sinful grass out there filling the wind with evil seed.

The compulsion to mate is not evil. It is natural. The competing is what creates the evil as a loser is created.

Then we repeat with the compulsion to compete as sin - and I have all of the same reservations as before.  The absence of evil in any competition, and the presence of evil outside of competition.

Quote:Even if you want to call it evil or a sin, it is necessary to our continuing existence. I small evil within a greater good must be seen as good as it is necessary.

Regards
DL

Necessity is not equivalent to morality, and a plainer reading of a necessary evil is not that it is, therefore, a good - but that it is...necessary..... and evil.  

We're back round to the fortunate catastrophe we began with. If man hadn't sinned we couldn't be saved. If we didn't compete, we'd be dead.

(September 28, 2020 at 11:43 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(September 28, 2020 at 11:35 am)Greatest I am Wrote: The compulsion to mate is not evil. It is natural. The competing is what creates the evil as a loser is created.

Then we repeat with the compulsion to compete as sin - and I have all of the same reservations as before.  The absence of evil in any competition, and the presence of evil outside of competition.

Quote:Even if you want to call it evil or a sin, it is necessary to our continuing existence. I small evil within a greater good must be seen as good as it is necessary.

Regards
DL

Necessity is not equivalent to morality, and a plainer reading of a necessary evil is not that it is, therefore, a good - but that it is...necessary..... and evil.  

We're back round to the fortunate catastrophe we began with.  If man hadn't sinned we couldn't be saved.  If we didn't compete, we'd be dead.

That is why our evolution is all good, even with the touch of evil from competing built into it. 

We are still here.

Necessity overrides morality when not doing a thing ends in extinction. Life will ignore morals to live in most cases, I think.

Regards
DL

We wouldn't call necessary evil necessary evil if it were good. The notion of a sum good (or a sum evil) is a credible position..but, as the name implies, it works by tallying up specific goods and evils, not by declaring all constituent parts goods on account of the sum. Incoherent aside from a frank acknowledgement of the evil side of the ledger.

I agree with you that life will ignore morals to live - I think that whatever compels us to do that is a better candidate for sin than sex or competition. Life being willing to do the wrong thing doesn't make the thing less wrong, and doesn't even help to build the case of a necessary evil. Life will do the wrong thing to live even when it isn't necessary.

That, right there, is the essence of sin. The will to do wrong even when you could do right. Even when doing wrong harms you.