Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims

[Angrboda]

Yet another fool who thinks, arrogantly enough, that they know the mind of God.  You believe God wanted such and so.  But do you actually know what he did or did not want?  No.  You're just projecting your beliefs onto God.  For all we know, God didn't want us to be free, either he had no choice, or we're not free, or some other possibility.  All you're doing is asserting your religious dogma as truth because you're an unreasoning twat.  You have no evidence for your specific god.  Nor for free will.  You have a belief that you want others to adopt because you're, again, an unreasoning twat.  I at least have some evidence for that proposition, whereas you have none for yours.

Obviously, you've never read the Bible. Nothing I said was outside of it. It's all there, try picking up a copy! It's the most printed book in history!

Who says the creature discussed in the bible is God? On what evidence. So you're simply taking the bible at face value in order to make grand, unjustified claims about God. Well I can do the same with the Upanashids, then.

Like I said, unreasoning twat.

[ronedee]

forgiveness works on two levels. what you owe God in the way of sin debt and what others owe you in the way of sin debt. God points out in a parable that the debt owed by you to him will never exceed the sin debt people owe you.

I owe nothing to your imaginary friend.  If it thinks otherwise, it is free to come collect in person.

---

Sin is an imaginary crime against an imaginary victim.

Saying "I'm sorry, God; yes, I accept Jesus" does nothing to resolve a problem caused in the real world against a real victim.  You must apologize and make restitution for what you've done, and the person you harmed is fully within their rights to refuse to forgive you.

I reject substitutionary atonement unconditionally.

You are looking at it through a human perspective. It's not to say, we don't owe each other repentance & reparations. But, in God's eyes none of us are innocent.

So we can all be put in the category of "sinner". And to say otherwise is...well....being a sinner.

I don't give a flying fuck what your god allegedly thinks, as I believe it to be no more than a human invention.  People behave badly sometimes, but "sin" is a fictional ailment.

We're not substituting anything. Atonement for our sins before God, is accepting His payment for our sins. He paid the price with us (death of the body).  And that goes along with His Love for us, and our Love for Him and each other. Of course most can't wrap their heads around that. Even believers have trouble understanding. And, that was my question years ago in my heart! Why?

No one pays my debts.  I do not consent to anyone dying in my place for any reason whatsoever.  Salvation rejected unconditionally.

Unfortunately, all had to go down for freewill to exist. God didn't want robots. He wanted His creation to be independent and Love Him for the sake of His gifts of Love & Life. Which most could care about. Just look around? The moment before us, is all that matters.

Bullshit.  I cannot love your god - even if it did exist, its behaviour as described in the Bible is unspeakably barbaric.

Faith is huge in all this!

And this is another reason that I will not be worshipping your god -- I have never possessed religious faith, as I cannot sufficiently suspend disbelief to the extent required to have faith in your god.

Or any other gods, for that matter.  My brain just doesn't do religious faith.  Throughout my life, even when I did try, the part of my mind that goes "Yeah, riiiiight..." predominated.  I'm done trying, especially now that I'm an agnostic atheist.  I see no benefit in wasting my time trying to cultivate a mindset that my unconscious mind clearly will not accept.

I get it! No need to explain. There's nothing there I haven't heard....

Except.... why so angry? No one is force feeding you the Word. Or, are they?

I mean, all religion is on the downside. You're winning! Shouldn't you be happy about that? 

Just wondering why? You don't need to reply if it's something personal. Ron

---

Obviously, you've never read the Bible. Nothing I said was outside of it. It's all there, try picking up a copy! It's the most printed book in history!

Did God write the bible in his holy hand, or did men?  So you're simply taking the bible at face value in order to make grand, unjustified claims about God.  Like I said, unreasoning twat.

Another angry face! Just trying to converse.

Hey, change my mind! I'm all ears. 

I realize you need to put up a "good showing" for your buddies....But, I'd appreciate less comparisons to body parts! Thx, Ron

[Astreja]

I get it! No need to explain. There's nothing there I haven't heard....

Except.... why so angry? No one is force feeding you the Word. Or, are they?

You have got to be kidding. Are you so naïve that you can't see the evil that religion has done in this world? Right now, Canada is flying flags at half-mast because of the discovery of a mass grave of children at a Catholic-run residential school in British Columbia.

It isn't the beliefs, per se - it's the infantilization of believers and the vesting of virtually unlimited power in the hands of manipulative people in the name of (the Mother Church, Fearless Leader, The Party -- any ideology, religious or secular, where power is centralized and obedience is coerced).

Humanity doesn't need messages to the effect of "Just obey God and everything will turn out okay." Humanity needs to take a giant step away from obedience and towards personal responsibility, and start basing morality on empathy rather than a fear of being punished.

[Angrboda]

Did God write the bible in his holy hand, or did men?  So you're simply taking the bible at face value in order to make grand, unjustified claims about God.  Like I said, unreasoning twat.

Another angry face! Just trying to converse.

Hey, change my mind! I'm all ears. 

I realize you need to put up a "good showing" for your buddies....But, I'd appreciate less comparisons to body parts! Thx, Ron

And he changes the subject. Apparently in addition to being stupid you're also a bigot who paints me as just another undifferentiated cog in the atheist machine out to gain some cred.

Fuck you, douche bag. You don't know me and your pretending that you do makes it clear that you are an asshole.

So answer the question or get bent. Changing the subject makes it clear you'd rather make ad hominem about me than any actual discussion.

[John 6IX Breezy]

Jesus supposedly suffered for our sins. Victims of sinners suffer from the same sins that Jesus already suffered for. The sinner is often unrepentant, feels no guilt and doesn't suffer. So what's the point of Jesus' suffering if the victim also suffers but not the sinner?

I suppose there are several things here that are producing your confusion. But perhaps the most pertinent one is that Christianity views everyone as victims of sin, including the sinner. This detachment can be seen in phrases such as the popular "hate the sin but love the sinner." As an analogy consider depression, this isn't something that neatly affects a single person, instead, it affects those closest to you—they are victims of your depression as much as you are. Sin is viewed similarly in Christianity. Take for example the case of the Texas Tower shooter: He killed several individuals, and yet, was himself suffering from a tumor in the brain which is speculated to have caused the increase in aggression.

So perhaps its best if you viewed sin under a neurological/psychological (or even disease) lens. If I'm not mistaken our own justice system aims to view maladaptive behavior in a similar fashion. You'll notice that many spiritual themes have secular counterparts: things like "sanctification" is no different from "rehabilitation" etc.

[ronedee]

And he changes the subject.  Apparently in addition to being stupid you're also a bigot who paints me as just another undifferentiated cog in the atheist machine out to gain some cred.

Fuck you, douche bag.  You don't know me and your pretending that you do makes it clear that you are an asshole.

So answer the question or get bent.  Changing the subject makes it clear you'd rather make ad hominem about me than any actual discussion.

Why answer your question? You have all the answers. And there's no point in entertaining you and more than I have.

So, remain remora.

[Angrboda]

And he changes the subject.  Apparently in addition to being stupid you're also a bigot who paints me as just another undifferentiated cog in the atheist machine out to gain some cred.

Fuck you, douche bag.  You don't know me and your pretending that you do makes it clear that you are an asshole.

So answer the question or get bent.  Changing the subject makes it clear you'd rather make ad hominem about me than any actual discussion.

Why answer your question? You have all the answers. And there's no point in entertaining you and more than I have.

So, remain remora.

[Nay_Sayer]

He had a crucifixtion kink

[ronedee]

You have got to be kidding.  Are you so naïve that you can't see the evil that religion has done in this world?  Right now, Canada is flying flags at half-mast because of the discovery of a mass grave of children at a Catholic-run residential school in British Columbia.

It isn't the beliefs, per se - it's the infantilization of believers and the vesting of virtually unlimited power in the hands of manipulative people in the name of (the Mother Church, Fearless Leader, The Party -- any ideology, religious or secular, where power is centralized and obedience is coerced).

Humanity doesn't need messages to the effect of "Just obey God and everything will turn out okay."  Humanity needs to take a giant step away from obedience and towards personal responsibility, and start basing morality on empathy rather than a fear of being punished.

But abortion is fine...right up to the moment of birth? At 121 million abortions worldwide, per year? 
Humans are way more prolific at killing than God has ever thought of being!

I'm not condoning anything done by so called, religious groups throughout history. But, I don't know how you 
can say talk about that evil and think abortion is not without reproach?

Reject offhand all religion. And anyone associated with it. Blame all the woes of the world on them/us. It's your God
given right, and choice. Freewill. But in doing so, you may also throw away knowledge and truth!

I'm old and wise enough to know, you can learn from every situation. And every person has some gift to give. We can sit in judgement
on many things. It doesn't mean we're right. Can I say that atheists are all bad? Would that be wrong? I have friends and family that are 
atheists. They are "good" people. I judge individuals. Not organizations. And whether they are; loving, caring and wise people. Period

So, blanket statements about religion are intrinsically wrong! As with any "blanket" statement is. That makes anyone doing it look biased 
and dumb. It's just not so! It's a lie; based on emotion and hate. The numbers don't support the claim. Just because you don't like it, 
doesn't make it true. But, around here...you get the "pass" you wouldn't in a real world scenario.

The world is made-up of humans that are for the most part good. Evil is a small number in any group. And all of us should be working
for that "good". And Truth. Instead of dividing us over our tastes. We don't judge people on race? Why should any other freedom and 
right be different? Good religious and their deeds far, FAR outweigh anything evil you scour the net for! But again, doesn't fit your
narrative, and tastes.

[HappySkeptic]

But abortion is fine...right up to the moment of birth? At 121 million abortions worldwide, per year? 
Humans are way more prolific at killing than God has ever thought of being!

You are equating the abortion of a fetus and the hidden death of over 200 children attending a Catholic residential school for indigenous people?

Actually, no I don't believe in abortion up to the moment of birth.  Birth itself is not a rational dividing line between protected human life and something dependent on the mother for further development.

But what magic happens at conception?  Does God endow the holy sperm with a soul that merely needs to enter an egg to become a complete human that will go do heaven, and how do you know this?  I realize that Pope has spoken, and the religious right cry "What if Mary had decided to abort Jesus!" (although Mary already gave her consent to being knocked up by a deity, not that it really was consent between equals).

I see the abortion debate as being about the subjugation of women, more than a rational debate about how much value "potential" human life has.