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Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
#51
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(June 2, 2021 at 10:08 am)ronedee Wrote: There is only ONE victim. Jesus


But, no.... we know better! And that was the original sin. Not eating a fig, or an apple. Turning away was the sin.
And we continue to turn away...I'm guilty! We're all guilty! Guilty in the womb! No one human, is innocent of sin.

And, God in His abundant Mercy, gave us a way to come back to Him. And reconcile Himself to us, through His Son, Jesus.
And if anyone says they would rather watch their own child suffer over themselves.... I'd like to know it?

In short; He paid the price for putting the choice in front of us. And He went through death, to break the curse: Which
"was" for sinners only. Death has lost it's sting, through innocent blood being spilled.

Now, we can "choose to believe", or not. We still have a choice! That's the amazing thing about God's Mercy!!

"Let he, who has understanding, hear!" "Fear not those who kill the body. But fear the ONE who can destroy both the body & soul..."

Alas, no amount of explaining will convince the unbeliever. True "understanding" only happens to those
who sincerely search for God. He leaves no searcher unanswered. That is the promise.

Now go back and replace "Jesus" with "Horus", and "god" with "Ra", and see how ridiculous these stories sound to the rest of us.
Dying to live, living to die.
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#52
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
Quote:There is only ONE victim. Jesus
A man-god cannot be a victim 


Quote:But, no.... we know better!
Two kinds of people tell you not to trust your own judgment or your own mind. Tyrants or Tricksters.

Quote:And that was the original sin. 
You hear that not having blind trust was a sin 



Quote:Not eating a fig, or an apple. Turning away was the sin.
You hear that not having blind trust was a sin 


Quote:And we continue to turn away...I'm guilty! We're all guilty! Guilty in the womb! No one human is innocent of sin.
Guilt implies you have something to be guilty about 


Quote:And, God in His abundant Mercy, gave us a way to come back to Him. And reconcile Himself to us, through His Son, Jesus.
Murdering your own child is not mercy 


Quote:And if anyone says they would rather watch their own child suffer over themselves... I'd like to know it?
Again that's not a virtue in fact nothing could be less so


Quote:In short; He paid the price for putting the choice in front of us.

Again there is nothing good about this 

Quote: And He went through death, to break the curse: Which
"was" for sinners only. Death has lost it's sting, through innocent blood being spilled.
Again there is nothing good about this 


Quote:Now, we can "choose to believe", or not. We still have a choice! That's the amazing thing about God's Mercy!!
Again there is nothing good about this 


Quote:"Let he, who has understanding, hear!" "Fear not those who kill the body. But fear the ONE who can destroy both the body & soul..."
Fear mongering 

Quote:Alas, no amount of explaining will convince the unbeliever. True "understanding" only happens to those
No, we understand your nonsense perfectly and rightly deem it tripe 


Quote:who sincerely search for God. He leaves no searcher unanswered. That is the promise.

Twaddle
“The sun from far gives life. But get close to it and it burns anything down to ashes”

[Image: flag-ukraine_1f1fa-1f1e6.png]  Heart [Image: canada-google.png]        

 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
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#53
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(June 1, 2021 at 2:25 pm)Angrboda Wrote: I referred you to my own beliefs as a Hindu, as well as to things that other believers have told me.  That you don't even remember what I said is obvious.
You are a Hindu. I am an atheist.

I will bet you we could have a civilised and productive conversation about those differing views, and I am certain that both of us, while we might not agree, we would both enjoy such an exchange.

But this will not happen with a wingnut. Long ago I learned that there are plenty of folks about with whom one can have a rational discussion regardless that one may disagree. And one can learn something from it either way.

Drich somehow thinks that ALL differing views are perforce wrong whatever they are.
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#54
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(June 3, 2021 at 4:46 pm)ronedee Wrote: But abortion is fine...right up to the moment of birth?

No, abortion is a procedure that should be freely available, no questions asked, so that it can be performed as early in pregnancy as possible. In fact, I regularly donate money to an organization that provides transportation to women in outlying regions so that they can access abortion services in a nearby city.

Late-term abortions tend to be medically necessary due to the fetus failing to thrive - septicemia, anencephaly, or some other condition has doomed a wanted pregnancy and is endangering the woman's life. Statistically they are quite rare.

I 100% support abortion at the sole discretion of the pregnant woman. She is the person best placed to decide whether to gestate or terminate her own pregnancy, and her body is sovereign territory with her as the absolute monarch. Forcing her to continue a pregnancy against her will is utterly barbaric, especially since so many of the people trying to legislate their way into her womb are very bad at providing postpartum support for mothers and children.

Quote:The world is made-up of humans that are for the most part good. Evil is a small number in any group. And all of us should be working
for that "good". And Truth.

This I can agree with. We'll still have to do something about people who commit evil acts and hide behind their religious beliefs, though.
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#55
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
Quote:But abortion is fine...right up to the moment of birth?
Fine, no Abortion should not exist in an ideal world. Should people nonetheless be permitted to pursue one? absolutely. Because no one has the right to dictate or violate someone's else reproductive autonomy.


Quote:At 121 million abortions worldwide, per year? 
Invalid comparison there is a difference between women not carrying a fetus to term and straight-up abusing and murdering children


Quote:Humans are way more prolific at killing than God has ever thought of being!
Actually god responsible for every single killing that has ever occurred
“The sun from far gives life. But get close to it and it burns anything down to ashes”

[Image: flag-ukraine_1f1fa-1f1e6.png]  Heart [Image: canada-google.png]        

 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
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#56
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(June 4, 2021 at 1:40 am)SUNGULA Wrote:
Quote:Humans are way more prolific at killing than God has ever thought of being!
Actually god responsible for every single killing that has ever occurred

Without getting off topic too much here (probably too late!)... Science says; that a fetus aka infant, is viable 20- 24 weeks and has
a 50% chance or greater of surviving outside the womb. Science also says that pain is felt after 20 weeks.

So, the question; When is the fetus considered a human being, with rights of it's own?

Everyone here seems to be abhorred at the death of children/babies from painful conditions and death by
God & Christians? Where's the outrage for the late term abortions which make up 9-30% (figures vary wildly
according to sources!)? Even at 7% that's 8.5 million per year, worldwide!

Why is that ok? If you are against child pain and death, why aren't they included? 

If, I go by the responses here? "It's in my body, so I can do whatever I want with it!"

By that premise, we are led to believe that the fetus is either; 1) not a human being, or 2) has no rights

So, which is it? And does the father have any say at all? If the woman keeps the baby, he will be hunted down
in order to provide for both!

Common sense, and science both say the fetus is indeed a human. And law says, humans have, unalienable rights!

I won't get into all the parallel's & comparisons that can be drawn from this subject. But, they are numerous!

The question remains, "Is that fetus a baby?" 

It's interesting how we can justify just about anything that fits our narrative and lifestyle. But, not others who 
merely have a different belief system. And find every reason for it to be "wrong and detrimental to society", and 
life as we know it!. But, ending a life is fine...under convenient circumstances.

For all that is blamed on God? Hypocrisy isn't one of them!
Quis ut Deus?
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#57
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
I don't notice you morning for all the cows, pigs, and chickens killed every year. All that senseless killing!
[Image: Fenrir-sign.jpg]
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#58
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
Quote:Without getting off topic too much here (probably too late!)... Science says; that a fetus aka infant, is viable 20- 24 weeks and has
a 50% chance or greater of surviving outside the womb. Science also says that pain is felt after 20 weeks.
Irrelevant 


Quote:So, the question; When is the fetus considered a human being, with rights of it's own?
Doesn't matter


Quote:Everyone here seems to be abhorred at the death of children/babies from painful conditions and death by
God & Christians? 
Yup 


Quote:Where's the outrage for the late term abortions which make up 9-30% (figures vary wildly
according to sources!)? Even at 7% that's 8.5 million per year, worldwide!
Not the same thing 


Quote:Why is that ok? If you are against child pain and death, why aren't they included? 
Because it's not the same thing 



Quote:If, I go by the responses here? "It's in my body, so I can do whatever I want with it!"
Yup if it goes on inside your body no one has the right to insist you do something 



Quote:By that premise, we are led to believe that the fetus is either; 1) not a human being, or 2) has no rights
If it has rights they don't extend to the inside of someone else nor do they entitle you to use someone else's body.



Quote:So, which is it? And does the father have any say at all?
There is no contradiction thus no requirement for a choice, And no his say ends after insemination.


Quote: If the woman keeps the baby, he will be hunted down
Nobody is hunted down don't dramatic!


Quote:in order to provide for both!
Yup because there is a child that needs care and taking a tiny amount of money from him do so is a small price to pay.



Quote:Common sense, and science both say the fetus is indeed a human. 
Again irrelevant 


Quote:And law says, humans have, unalienable rights!
No one has the right to someone else's body or to live within it or to use it's resources against the will of that person 



Quote:I won't get into all the parallel's & comparisons that can be drawn from this subject. But, they are numerous!
You could try but you will fail 


Quote:The question remains, "Is that fetus a baby?"
 Actually, that question is irrelevant 



Quote:It's interesting how we can justify just about anything that fits our narrative and lifestyle.
Nope this is built on sound reason 


Quote:But, not others who merely have a different belief system. And find every reason for it to be "wrong and detrimental to society", and 
life as we know it!. 
Abortion is neither to society or life as we know it. Again stop being overdramatic 


Quote:But, ending a life is fine...under convenient circumstances.
Convenient nope. Justified absolutely.



Quote:For all that is blamed on God? Hypocrisy isn't one of them!
Nope god is both a hypocrite and responsible for all deaths and murders ....Period
“The sun from far gives life. But get close to it and it burns anything down to ashes”

[Image: flag-ukraine_1f1fa-1f1e6.png]  Heart [Image: canada-google.png]        

 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
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#59
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
Well said, @SUNGULA

It doesn't matter whether the fetus is human or not. It doesn't matter if it could talk and do taxes.

If it is using the woman's body, it is her decision on whether to allow it to keep using it. You can't force someone to sustain the life of someone else through the use of their body.

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#60
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
Well, you could, and we seem determined to do so..I think what you mean to say is that it's fucking pathetic and christians who believe that the issue has anything to do with a god are heretical ghouls. Wink

God has spoken on the issue. Abortions are fine, remember to tip your rabbi.
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