Russia and Ukraine

[Leonardo17]

It's as if Haiti has never been forgiven for being the first place in the Americas to get out from under colonial rule. It's shocking what's been done to them since.

-       I agree with that.

[Leonardo17]

Oops, obviously I made a mistake earlier. I said that Haiti was the first to gain its independence, but of course the US was before that.

In an important way the US was the first to do it and the last to get away with it.

As everyone knows, the War of Independence was fought for Liberty, Justice, and All Good Things. It's important to remember that it was fought largely over who got to control the cotton.

Cotton was an extremely valuable commodity in those days, but the people who profited were those who processed and wove it, not those who grew it. Britain used America as its source for the raw material but refused to allow them the technology or the economic freedom to do the processing. The British wanted the profit for themselves, of course. American producers wanted the extra value gained through processing, so they fought for independence. (This is probably not well known by people who get their history from AmericaFuckYeah.gov.)

Britain was careful not to make the same mistake twice, so when they moved their cotton growing source to Egypt they were careful to control industry there too. No factories or technology to get the value that Britain wanted for itself. If the technology is held down then obviously the economy and consequently education is held down. This is why Napoleon bothered to conquer Egypt and why it remains a poor country. It must not be allowed to develop.

The US did the same to Haiti and many other countries, requiring sources of cheap labor so that rich people in the US could keep the profits for themselves. The Clintons helped. The invasion force that's on its way will maintain this status quo, not help to enrich the people of Haiti.

This is ultimately what the current war is about also. The US requires that no other area be allowed to develop to the point where it can compete. Propaganda, again, insists that the US has nothing to do with this war, that it is only New Modern Hitler trying to enlarge his territory. Very naive people believe this. The governments of Russia and China of course know the history and the policies of the US better than most Americans. Whenever you read propaganda from any of these governments, it's necessary to keep this larger goal in mind.

“As everyone knows, the War of Independence was fought for Liberty, Justice, and All Good Things. It's important to remember that it was fought largely over who got to control the cotton.

Cotton was an extremely valuable commodity in those days, but the people who profited were those who processed and wove it, not those who grew it. Britain used America as its source for the raw material but refused to allow them the technology or the economic freedom to do the processing. The British wanted the profit for themselves, of course. American producers wanted the extra value gained through processing, so they fought for independence. (This is probably not well known by people who get their history from AmericaFuckYeah.gov.)”
 
This seems like a Marxist interpretation of things. And I can agree to that. But there is also a whole philosophical background that starts in the 17th century. Philosophers like Montesquieu, Diderot, Rousseau, Voltaire, John Locke etc. has been debating for almost two centuries about the nature of government and about how a more modern and just way of government should be. And Thomas Jefferson has a very nice book called “Liberty and State”. In this book you can see how this states-person struggles to determine the ideal form of governance for the future USA.
   So your approach is too simplistic. King George must have seen it that way. But not the American People.
 
“Britain was careful not to make the same mistake twice, so when they moved their cotton growing source to Egypt they were careful to control industry there too. No factories or technology to get the value that Britain wanted for itself. If the technology is held down then obviously the economy and consequently education is held down. This is why Napoleon bothered to conquer Egypt and why it remains a poor country. It must not be allowed to develop.”
 
- Napoleon was a little bit like Hitler. He believed in the occult. When he went to conquer Egypt he took about 200 scientists with him in order to discover the technologies hidden in the Great Pyramids. Of course this had very positive consequences for Egyptology (Like the discovery of the Rosetta Stone for instance). But he failed to discover hidden Egyptian technologies that would allow him to conquer the entire world.
 
“The governments of Russia and China of course know the history and the policies of the US better than most Americans.”
Why would anyone want to believe the state sponsored media of Russia or China (including, and above all the people of Russia and China)? Why would we want to do that?

[Belacqua]

CNN anchorman just now matter-of-factly announces that "We've been waging this unprecedented war against Vladimir Putin."

If this isn't a proxy war, somebody should tell the corporate spokesmen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V03NjfJfiE

[Leonardo17]

About an earlier war-based-on-lies, Julian Assange said:

"The goal is to use Afghanistan to wash money out of the tax bases of the US and Europe through Afghanistan and back into the hands of a transnational security elite. The goal is an endless war, not a successful war."

He would probably be saying the same about our current war if he weren't a political prisoner.

Let me tell you about Julian Assange and other conspiracies:
- You and I we cannot know about “the secret goals of America in Afghanistan”. You are not CIA, I am not CIA and believe me the FSB is not going to lay out all the information that it has (if it has any) on this kind of subject through Sputnik News or through Twitter. They won’t do it. So stop debating on conspiracies. If you have nothing to support any theory of any kind than what you are doing is fantasy. You are fantasizing.
  Yet: If you are a relative of Julian Assange or if you are a former FSB or CIA operative, than I am all ears, I am listening. But why would you want to speculate on something none of us knows anything about? (including yourself)
 
- It was Bush who decided to invade Irak and Afghanistan. Many people have opposed these moves at the time. He even said “the operation will look better when it’s over”. Now it’s over. I still don’t like his operation even without counting the terrible military and financial losses of America in these conflicts. I see it as a Vietnam-like mistake. But at least they managed to end Al-Kaida, which is a good thing.

[Belacqua]

This seems like a Marxist interpretation of things. And I can agree to that. 

Well, sure. Marxist interpretations are often correct. Marxist agenda to fix the problems not so much. (But remember that Marx said, "I am not a Marxist." A lot has been done in his name that he wouldn't condone.)

But there is also a whole philosophical background that starts in the 17th century. Philosophers like Montesquieu, Diderot, Rousseau, Voltaire, John Locke etc. has been debating for almost two centuries about the nature of government and about how a more modern and just way of government should be. And Thomas Jefferson has a very nice book called “Liberty and State”. In this book you can see how this states-person struggles to determine the ideal form of governance for the future USA. 
   So your approach is too simplistic. King George must have seen it that way. But not the American People. 

Jefferson and those guys certainly knew a lot about political philosophy. There is always a tension between theory and praxis, though. I mean, "All men are created equal," said the slave-owners. 

Perhaps you think I'm cynical, but I think that philosophy generally takes a back seat when people see their income at stake. 

 Napoleon was a little bit like Hitler. He believed in the occult. When he went to conquer Egypt he took about 200 scientists with him in order to discover the technologies hidden in the Great Pyramids. Of course this had very positive consequences for Egyptology (Like the discovery of the Rosetta Stone for instance). But he failed to discover hidden Egyptian technologies that would allow him to conquer the entire world. 

Yeah, a little bit. It was nice that in those days the conquering armies actually took along scholars to document the countries they were conquering, instead of just driving their heavy equipment over it. 

Napoleon never would have allowed the Iraqi National Museum to get looted if he'd taken Baghdad.

Why would anyone want to believe the state sponsored media of Russia or China (including, and above all the people of Russia and China)? Why would we want to do that?

What the officials know and what the state-sponsored media say are often entirely different. All countries use propaganda. 

The last time I was in O'Hare Airport I discovered that the only way to escape having to listen to CNN was to pay to sit in a restaurant. Everywhere else the most blatant pro-government propaganda was blaring. 

It's sad when you see people just swallowing the lies from one side or another.

[Belacqua]

But at least they managed to end Al-Kaida, which is a good thing.

The US supported Al Qaeda in Syria. Russia opposed it.

[The Architect Of Fate]

CNN anchorman just now matter-of-factly announces that "We've been waging this unprecedented war against Vladimir Putin."

If this isn't a proxy war, somebody should tell the corporate spokesmen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V03NjfJfiE

Yup as Ukraine's allies we have been giving weapons to wage a war. So in this sense, we have been waging a war on Putin. Also waging an economic war through sanctions. That doesn't make this a proxy war, Nor does his comment imply anything other than what I have just stated. You are desperate to read your own nonsense into other people's words.

[The Architect Of Fate]

The US supported Al Qaeda in Syria. Russia opposed it.

Yup and the reason it supported it was to stop Russia's slaughter of Afghans and Russia has had no problem with helping the Taliban against the US. So yeah Russia has no moral high ground here.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Napoleon never would have allowed the Iraqi National Museum to get looted if he'd taken Baghdad.

Yeah, Napolean never engaged in looting or the destruction of history .....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic..._and_Syria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_cam..._and_Syria

http://we-aggregate.org/project/the-dest...on-to-isis

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210...al-museums

Also the US isn't responsible for the looting of the Bagdad Museum in fact they been the ones returning the items and you realize alot of the items in the bagdad museum were already recorded.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/a...ts-to-iraq


Meanwhile your beloved Russians 
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/news/top...e-culture/

[The Architect Of Fate]

What the officials know and what the state-sponsored media say are often entirely different. All countries use propaganda. 

The last time I was in O'Hare Airport I discovered that the only way to escape having to listen to CNN was to pay to sit in a restaurant. Everywhere else the most blatant pro-government propaganda was blaring. 

It's sad when you see people just swallowing the lies from one side or another.

And ADS on overdrive .....