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There are no answers in Genesis
#21
RE: There are no answers in Genesis
(November 21, 2022 at 2:25 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Prior to Hutton, believers took Genesis literally; why not just abandon it and see all of it for what it is, bronze-age mythologies?

I don't know who Hutton is, but Augustine said very clearly that Genesis is not literal.
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#22
RE: There are no answers in Genesis
(November 21, 2022 at 7:13 pm)Belacqua Wrote:
(November 21, 2022 at 2:25 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Prior to Hutton, believers took Genesis literally; why not just abandon it and see all of it for what it is, bronze-age mythologies?

I don't know who Hutton is, but Augustine said very clearly that Genesis is not literal.

James Hutton was a Scottish geologist and the essential founder of uniformitarianism (the idea that changes in the Earth’s crust occur over immensely long periods of time, which pretty well discredits YEC).

It doesn’t really matter (for purposes of this discussion) what Augustine of Hippo had to say about Genesis.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#23
RE: There are no answers in Genesis
In Galatians 4, Paul interprets the Genesis account of Abraham's sons as allegory.

Irenaeus of Lyons, in the 2nd century, interpreted the Adam and Eve story as allegory.

In the 3rd century, Origen said that the meaning could only be discerned by reading allegorically.
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#24
RE: There are no answers in Genesis
(November 21, 2022 at 7:24 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(November 21, 2022 at 7:13 pm)Belacqua Wrote: I don't know who Hutton is, but Augustine said very clearly that Genesis is not literal.

James Hutton was a Scottish geologist and the essential founder of uniformitarianism (the idea that changes in the Earth’s crust occur over immensely long periods of time, which pretty well discredits YEC).

It doesn’t really matter (for purposes of this discussion) what Augustine of Hippo had to say about Genesis.

Boru

Yes, Augustone does matter because it directly refutes the point you were making. There are important early Christians that did not consider Genesis a literal account. Augustine is one. Origen is another.

Yes, there are many Ken Hamm types. And I cannot speak for @Belacqua, but when I do have a chance to engage respectfully with a fundamentalist, I point them in the same direction as I do those atheists who mistakenly assume that if the bible is not true in any respect (like cosmology), that it cannot be reliable guide in any other respect, like spiritual instruction.
<insert profound quote here>
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#25
RE: There are no answers in Genesis
Ah yes, the tired  It's Non-Literal when it is needed to explain away all the bullshit and it becomes very literal when it serves their interests and agendas. How very convenient.... Dodgy
"Change was inevitable"


Nemo sicut deus debet esse!

[Image: Canada_Flag.jpg?v=1646203843]



 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
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#26
RE: There are no answers in Genesis
(November 21, 2022 at 8:25 pm)Belacqua Wrote: In Galatians 4, Paul interprets the Genesis account of Abraham's sons as allegory.

Irenaeus of Lyons, in the 2nd century, interpreted the Adam and Eve story as allegory.

In the 3rd century, Origen said that the meaning could only be discerned by reading allegorically.

You're cherry-picking your sources; explain Bishop James Ussher's date of Creation, which was universally praised by both Catholic & Protestant churchmen and printed in English Bibles for over 2 centuries??
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#27
RE: There are no answers in Genesis
The Bible, the supposed word of god, shouldn't need interpretation.
  
“If you are the smartest person in the room, then you are in the wrong room.” — Confucius
                                      
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#28
RE: There are no answers in Genesis
(November 21, 2022 at 9:01 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: The Bible, the supposed word of god, shouldn't need interpretation.
Oh no, they are interpreting it under the influence of the "holy spirit" who apparently is a bit of an indecisive spirit as he can't seem to get Christians to agree on the text. Dodgy
"Change was inevitable"


Nemo sicut deus debet esse!

[Image: Canada_Flag.jpg?v=1646203843]



 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
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#29
RE: There are no answers in Genesis
(November 21, 2022 at 8:29 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:
(November 21, 2022 at 7:24 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: James Hutton was a Scottish geologist and the essential founder of uniformitarianism (the idea that changes in the Earth’s crust occur over immensely long periods of time, which pretty well discredits YEC).

It doesn’t really matter (for purposes of this discussion) what Augustine of Hippo had to say about Genesis.

Boru

Yes, Augustone does matter because it directly refutes the point you were making. There are important early Christians that did not consider Genesis a literal account. Augustine is one. Origen is another.

Yes, there are many Ken Hamm types. And I cannot speak for @Belacqua, but when I do have a chance to engage respectfully with a fundamentalist, I point them in the same direction as I do those atheists who mistakenly assume that if the bible is not true in any respect (like cosmology), that it cannot be reliable guide in any other respect, like spiritual instruction.

I’m confused - what point was I making that you think Augustine refuted?

What the church fathers say about YEC doesn’t matter because rank and file Christians, by and large, have no idea what Origen, Augustine, et al, said. The issue before us is whether a literalist, absolutist interpretation of the Bible is valid when it comes to science. I think both of us agree that it isn’t.

In this case, my issue is with YEC, not with Christians in general.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#30
RE: There are no answers in Genesis
(November 21, 2022 at 8:25 pm)Belacqua Wrote: In Galatians 4, Paul interprets the Genesis account of Abraham's sons as allegory.

He was writing to Gentiles, of which ninety to ninety-five percent couldn't even read, and of which one hundred percent had never read Torah because you had to go to the local synagogue to get a copy of the LXX. It'd be like me saying, "This source code is written in Fortran 90 but this part right here is just commentary."  Everyone would just go, "Sure, LG."
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