Most People Insist That Two Separate Being Can Never Be One

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Personal experiences may or may not qualify as evidence. I have no doubt that you've had religious experiences, but they don't necessarily point to your attendant religious beliefs being true. By way of example, if I were to take a dose of hallucinogens and saw winged mermaids flying out of my bathtub, that's an actual experience that doesn't prove the existence of mermaids, winged or otherwise. The same applies to 'contemporary' experiences.

Your historical evidence isn't actually evidence, either. As Anom pointed out earlier, saying, 'That so-and-so did such-and-such proves that x is true', isn't evidence but speculation and supposition. I can think of plenty of reasons why the early Christians behaved as they did - politics, economics, fanaticism - that don't require the claims of Christianity to be true.

Boru

Yes, but I know I've taken hallucinogens beforehand, and therefore don't trust the results. The thing about personal experience is that I know I'm not lying and I know the circumstances, so when it comes to belief I have nowhere to hide.

With contemporary experiences, people I have known for a long time and/or trust implicitly are going to make powerful witnesses. With public evidence, external scrutiny can be applied (e.g. Lourdes is pretty strict).

That the disciples as a group signed up for a sharply reduced lifetime of pain isn't explainable by politics or economics. Fanaticism for sure, but given that we know from history that when a wannabe Messiah died it was game over, why was Jesus' death so utterly different?

Which leads to the wider question, why would His death lead the disciples to conclude that this long awaited earth shattering event had happened- the start of the Kingdom of God/forgiveness of sins/end of death/etc/etc? Why had resurrection moved from a fringe idea to a core belief and be split in two events? Why did they conclude that God had made his long awaited return to Jerusalem?




My posting over the next few weeks will be infrequent, but I'm keen to continue...

Of course you’re not lying, and I would never imply that you were. But - as with hallucinogens - one can be perfectly sincere and still be wrong. A Hindu or a Muslim is just as sincere in their beliefs as you are. You can’t all be right.

No, the people you know and trust are not ‘pretty powerful witnesses’ simply because their beliefs and experiences jibe with yours. They’re simply confirming what you already believe, but it doesn’t mean they’re right (confirmation bias).

Yes, Lourdes is very strict, but simply because an apparently spontaneous healing is inexplicable doesn’t justify calling it a miracles. It’s worth pondering why over the course of 160 years with an average of three million pilgrims per year, the Church has only ‘verified’ 70 miracles. 

Of COURSE the disciples’ devotion is explicable by politics, primarily the Roman occupation of Judea. As for economics, the disciples are depicted mostly as being of the working class. This group has always been a favoured target of charismatic preachers. As for cults dying out when their messiah snuffs it that’s simply not the case. Scientology is a prime example. This also answers your last paragraph.

Boru

[Fake Messiah]

Yes, Lourdes is very strict, but simply because an apparently spontaneous healing is inexplicable doesn’t justify calling it a miracles. It’s worth pondering why over the course of 160 years with an average of three million pilgrims per year, the Church has only ‘verified’ 70 miracles. 

80 thousand sick people attend Lourdes every year for over a century and out of that there are 66 confirmed miracle-cured. Statistically, that is insignificant.

[The Grand Nudger]

I've always thought that a personal experience would be the most privately compelling reason to believe in a god. If you have that, you really don't need any of the rest..and, frankly speaking, the rest hurts what could never be more than an anecdotal case to begin with. If christ descended from on high and made it's presence known to me I'd probably be a christian...I think it's fair to assume that....but I would still know that the story in new magic book is a fairy tale.

That's where most self professed christians are already at today, and most of them have never had any experience™...either. It's funny, but there's little practical difference between them and me.

[The Grand Nudger]

-as for lourdes...I think it's a miracle more people haven't keeled over on account of their superstitions about a water spigot.  I think it's a miracle how effective the priests of mary, queen of the apostles, have been at fleecing christians for a magic potion with no ingredients. I think it's a miracle that any christian would attach shit like this to their religious beliefs.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I love it that "St. Josephat" was a conflation of Buddha.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

-as for lourdes...I think it's a miracle more people haven't keeled over on account of their superstitions about a water spigot.  I think it's a miracle how effective the priests of mary, queen of the apostles, have been at fleecing christians for a magic potion with no ingredients.  I think it's a miracle that any christian would attach shit like this to their religious beliefs.

Whaddya mean ‘no ingredients’? Of COURSE there’s ingredients - the blessing of the Sacred Virgin, which has been shown to be exactly as effective as ‘hoping’.

Boru

[arewethereyet]

Back to the title of the thread -

Two separate beings are...two separate beings.

That's why I insist they can't be one...since they are obviously two. It's right there in the words.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Back to the title of the thread -

Two separate beings are...two separate beings.

That's why I insist they can't be one...since they are obviously two.  It's right there in the words.

Pretty much. If two separate beings were one being, the two separate beings would no longer exist.

Boru

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Back to the title of the thread -

Two separate beings are...two separate beings.

That's why I insist they can't be one...since they are obviously two.  It's right there in the words.

[Fundy]BUT! The Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost! Those are two who are one.[/Fundy]

[The Grand Nudger]

-as for lourdes...I think it's a miracle more people haven't keeled over on account of their superstitions about a water spigot.  I think it's a miracle how effective the priests of mary, queen of the apostles, have been at fleecing christians for a magic potion with no ingredients.  I think it's a miracle that any christian would attach shit like this to their religious beliefs.

Whaddya mean ‘no ingredients’? Of COURSE there’s ingredients - the blessing of the Sacred Virgin, which has been shown to be exactly as effective as ‘hoping’.

Boru

Sure, that and copious amounts of fecal material and slewed skin riddled with communicable disease - but I'm talking about the bottled shit they sell.  I think it's safe to assume that the tap they fill those bottles from might be cleaner than the pools people visit, but also that it's not babysat by a shaman who certainly has the ability to make it magic for every second the pump and filter drums are operating.  

This stuff is absolutely ridiculous when you think about it like an adult for a grand total of 60secs or so....even if you fundamentally believe in the idea of magic water like a full on mouthbreather. The same people immediately realize it when the product is "smartwater" but not when the product is "jesuswater". Other than an inherent sense of fairness and good behavior, I can't tell you why I'm not in the jesuswater business. I've got a creek! Cows shit in it, but it's still cleaner than the pools at lourdes, you'll get the same medicinal effect at-least, and I know that for a fact. Hell, my daughter is a so-called "miracle" as a competition level archer dealing with paralysis at birth. It was obviously big mouthfuls of my dogwater that fixed her. The ad copy writes itself and the pictures would be precious. So.

: shrugs :

But sure, sure, I can't wait to hear another supposed believer tell me that their faith is as true or false as the miracle cure from frances runoff problem. Well...okaaaay.....if you say so, jesusman, if you say so.