Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 28, 2024, 10:50 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Most People Insist That Two Separate Being Can Never Be One
#41
RE: Most People Insist That Two Separate Being Can Never Be One
(June 1, 2023 at 5:20 am)Vicki Q Wrote:
(May 31, 2023 at 7:32 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Personal experiences may or may not qualify as evidence. I have no doubt that you've had religious experiences, but they don't necessarily point to your attendant religious beliefs being true. By way of example, if I were to take a dose of hallucinogens and saw winged mermaids flying out of my bathtub, that's an actual experience that doesn't prove the existence of mermaids, winged or otherwise. The same applies to 'contemporary' experiences.

Your historical evidence isn't actually evidence, either. As Anom pointed out earlier, saying, 'That so-and-so did such-and-such proves that x is true', isn't evidence but speculation and supposition. I can think of plenty of reasons why the early Christians behaved as they did - politics, economics, fanaticism - that don't require the claims of Christianity to be true.

Boru

Yes, but I know I've taken hallucinogens beforehand, and therefore don't trust the results. The thing about personal experience is that I know I'm not lying and I know the circumstances, so when it comes to belief I have nowhere to hide.

With contemporary experiences, people I have known for a long time and/or trust implicitly are going to make powerful witnesses. With public evidence, external scrutiny can be applied (e.g. Lourdes is pretty strict).

That the disciples as a group signed up for a sharply reduced lifetime of pain isn't explainable by politics or economics. Fanaticism for sure, but given that we know from history that when a wannabe Messiah died it was game over, why was Jesus' death so utterly different?

Which leads to the wider question, why would His death lead the disciples to conclude that this long awaited earth shattering event had happened- the start of the Kingdom of God/forgiveness of sins/end of death/etc/etc? Why had resurrection moved from a fringe idea to a core belief and be split in two events? Why did they conclude that God had made his long awaited return to Jerusalem?




My posting over the next few weeks will be infrequent, but I'm keen to continue...

Of course you’re not lying, and I would never imply that you were. But - as with hallucinogens - one can be perfectly sincere and still be wrong. A Hindu or a Muslim is just as sincere in their beliefs as you are. You can’t all be right.

No, the people you know and trust are not ‘pretty powerful witnesses’ simply because their beliefs and experiences jibe with yours. They’re simply confirming what you already believe, but it doesn’t mean they’re right (confirmation bias).

Yes, Lourdes is very strict, but simply because an apparently spontaneous healing is inexplicable doesn’t justify calling it a miracles. It’s worth pondering why over the course of 160 years with an average of three million pilgrims per year, the Church has only ‘verified’ 70 miracles. 

Of COURSE the disciples’ devotion is explicable by politics, primarily the Roman occupation of Judea. As for economics, the disciples are depicted mostly as being of the working class. This group has always been a favoured target of charismatic preachers. As for cults dying out when their messiah snuffs it that’s simply not the case. Scientology is a prime example. This also answers your last paragraph.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
Reply
#42
RE: Most People Insist That Two Separate Being Can Never Be One
(June 1, 2023 at 7:00 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Yes, Lourdes is very strict, but simply because an apparently spontaneous healing is inexplicable doesn’t justify calling it a miracles. It’s worth pondering why over the course of 160 years with an average of three million pilgrims per year, the Church has only ‘verified’ 70 miracles. 

80 thousand sick people attend Lourdes every year for over a century and out of that there are 66 confirmed miracle-cured. Statistically, that is insignificant.



teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
Reply
#43
RE: Most People Insist That Two Separate Being Can Never Be One
I've always thought that a personal experience would be the most privately compelling reason to believe in a god. If you have that, you really don't need any of the rest..and, frankly speaking, the rest hurts what could never be more than an anecdotal case to begin with. If christ descended from on high and made it's presence known to me I'd probably be a christian...I think it's fair to assume that....but I would still know that the story in new magic book is a fairy tale.

That's where most self professed christians are already at today, and most of them have never had any experience™...either. It's funny, but there's little practical difference between them and me.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#44
RE: Most People Insist That Two Separate Being Can Never Be One
-as for lourdes...I think it's a miracle more people haven't keeled over on account of their superstitions about a water spigot.  I think it's a miracle how effective the priests of mary, queen of the apostles, have been at fleecing christians for a magic potion with no ingredients. I think it's a miracle that any christian would attach shit like this to their religious beliefs.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#45
RE: Most People Insist That Two Separate Being Can Never Be One
I love it that "St. Josephat" was a conflation of Buddha.
Reply
#46
RE: Most People Insist That Two Separate Being Can Never Be One
(June 1, 2023 at 8:13 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: -as for lourdes...I think it's a miracle more people haven't keeled over on account of their superstitions about a water spigot.  I think it's a miracle how effective the priests of mary, queen of the apostles, have been at fleecing christians for a magic potion with no ingredients.  I think it's a miracle that any christian would attach shit like this to their religious beliefs.

Whaddya mean ‘no ingredients’? Of COURSE there’s ingredients - the blessing of the Sacred Virgin, which has been shown to be exactly as effective as ‘hoping’.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
Reply
#47
RE: Most People Insist That Two Separate Being Can Never Be One
Back to the title of the thread -

Two separate beings are...two separate beings.

That's why I insist they can't be one...since they are obviously two. It's right there in the words.
  
“If you are the smartest person in the room, then you are in the wrong room.” — Confucius
                                      
Reply
#48
RE: Most People Insist That Two Separate Being Can Never Be One
(June 1, 2023 at 2:13 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Back to the title of the thread -

Two separate beings are...two separate beings.

That's why I insist they can't be one...since they are obviously two.  It's right there in the words.

Pretty much. If two separate beings were one being, the two separate beings would no longer exist.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
Reply
#49
RE: Most People Insist That Two Separate Being Can Never Be One
(June 1, 2023 at 2:13 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Back to the title of the thread -

Two separate beings are...two separate beings.

That's why I insist they can't be one...since they are obviously two.  It's right there in the words.

[Fundy]BUT! The Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost! Those are two who are one.[/Fundy]
Reply
#50
RE: Most People Insist That Two Separate Being Can Never Be One
(June 1, 2023 at 11:59 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(June 1, 2023 at 8:13 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: -as for lourdes...I think it's a miracle more people haven't keeled over on account of their superstitions about a water spigot.  I think it's a miracle how effective the priests of mary, queen of the apostles, have been at fleecing christians for a magic potion with no ingredients.  I think it's a miracle that any christian would attach shit like this to their religious beliefs.

Whaddya mean ‘no ingredients’? Of COURSE there’s ingredients - the blessing of the Sacred Virgin, which has been shown to be exactly as effective as ‘hoping’.

Boru

Sure, that and copious amounts of fecal material and slewed skin riddled with communicable disease - but I'm talking about the bottled shit they sell.  I think it's safe to assume that the tap they fill those bottles from might be cleaner than the pools people visit, but also that it's not babysat by a shaman who certainly has the ability to make it magic for every second the pump and filter drums are operating.  

This stuff is absolutely ridiculous when you think about it like an adult for a grand total of 60secs or so....even if you fundamentally believe in the idea of magic water like a full on mouthbreather. The same people immediately realize it when the product is "smartwater" but not when the product is "jesuswater". Other than an inherent sense of fairness and good behavior, I can't tell you why I'm not in the jesuswater business. I've got a creek! Cows shit in it, but it's still cleaner than the pools at lourdes, you'll get the same medicinal effect at-least, and I know that for a fact. Hell, my daughter is a so-called "miracle" as a competition level archer dealing with paralysis at birth. It was obviously big mouthfuls of my dogwater that fixed her. The ad copy writes itself and the pictures would be precious. So.

: shrugs :

But sure, sure, I can't wait to hear another supposed believer tell me that their faith is as true or false as the miracle cure from frances runoff problem. Well...okaaaay.....if you say so, jesusman, if you say so.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  The People of Light vs The People of Darkness Leonardo17 2 523 October 27, 2023 at 7:55 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  The Two-Source Hypthothesis LinuxGal 2 324 September 4, 2023 at 9:11 am
Last Post: LinuxGal
  Two verses on hell from the bible purplepurpose 7 608 June 15, 2023 at 10:25 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Two audio books for Christians (and, everyone else) Jehanne 3 567 January 16, 2019 at 12:52 am
Last Post: Fake Messiah
  Two wrongs make a right Graufreud 19 1718 July 21, 2018 at 8:49 pm
Last Post: Huggy Bear
  Truer Words Were Never Spoken Minimalist 9 2430 April 23, 2018 at 8:39 pm
Last Post: vorlon13
Question Why do you people say there is no evidence,when you can't be bothered to look for it? Jaguar 74 20083 November 5, 2017 at 7:17 pm
Last Post: GUBU
  Two More Xhristard Assholes Killed Their Kid Minimalist 17 4479 June 25, 2017 at 9:36 pm
Last Post: Astonished
  There are ONLY two types of Christians! 21stCenturyIconoclast! 60 13611 June 22, 2017 at 9:28 pm
Last Post: The Valkyrie
  Christians never murdered anybody mcolafson 22 3422 December 15, 2016 at 3:22 pm
Last Post: vorlon13



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)