A Philosophy of War and Conflict

[Leonardo17]

Angrboda:
 

“The fact that it is in every major spiritual teaching is not an argument that it is correct. The spiritual traditions could all be wrong on this point. This is nothing more than a thinly veiled argument ad populum.”

 

 
- You know Neanderthals had bigger brains than us (they really did). What made the Sapiens specie strong was its ability to communicate with one another and act together more effectively than most other hominid species. Our very ability to have compassion to one another made us strong.
 

“I think that if you asked most religious people whether their beliefs were rooted in baseless dogma, you would have an argument. Your assertions that religion is dogmatic and your spirituality is not seems to be a dogmatic belief that you hold.”

 
- That is a good point. But I never simply trusted anybody just because it sounded good. There is a whole process of thoughts and learning and unlearning that goes on here. And I’m still not anywhere near the finish line.
 
But today there is this constellation of spiritual thinkers who really bring us rather good solution to our existential issues as humans. Could they all be wrong? – Maybe. But that’s not my opinion.
 
The Grand Nudger:
 

“Who told you the russians stopped hitting grain ships and infrastructure?  They've struck 50 ukranian cargo ships since june.  Cargo vessels won't even approach Odessa anymore, which russia struck 126 times just in the month of july.  Is it too much to ask for the russians to go home and leave ukraine alone?”

---

 
- Thanks for reminding me of near term developments and no, I think Russia should simply leave them alone. In the Early 90’s there was this joke about Poland. We would ask ourselves “Why doesn’t Russia leave Poland alone?”
+ Putin is destroying Russia in every possible way. Do you know how many lost job and business opportunities this means for a country like mine (And many other European and none European countries). I recently watched “The Wizard of the Kremlin”. Putin is portrayed as this very smart KGB guy in that movie. And I disagree. I don’t think this guy has any idea about what he is doing.
“We might have released thrips over cuba in 96.  No one can prove it.  We have much more deadly biological weapons than a diseased corpse nowaday...though quite a few remain diseased corpse-based!  I agree with you on every point...but I want to offer an alternative view to the civilization of warfare.
 
Perhaps it's actually fetishization.  It seems great to the in-group.  Feudal lords, for example, could and would mow down any number of peasants.  Burn villages.  Rape their way through counties.  However...when they found themselves in a bind...unexpectedly dismounted or surrounded....they could count on another person of the same caste enforcing the martial rules of their time.  Capture, bounty, release, reengagement.  This is the reality to the fantasy of chivalry...but it was also believed to be (and must have seemed..to them) to be a more refined and civil way to engage in combat.  It is often (perhaps always) the case that the civil way to engage in conflict privileges the skills, tactics, resources, and cultural mores of the constructing martial state or body.  Making it all but impossible for a smaller or less powerful or poorer nation to fight the right way.  Terrorism is absolutely warfare - it's the collection of possible military responses we deem taboo.  A huge part of the idea of a professional military as we now know it actually arose as a form of then-asymmetric warfare itself...taking the business of killing out of the hands of landed lords and military caste members and democratizing slaughter.  No longer could said horse raider from before count on being captured, housed, and sold...he was going to be unceremoniuosly pried of of his horse by one guy with a purpose built implement, so that another guy could cave his plate in around his lungs, before yet another guy showed up with a spike to finish of the immobilized and suffocating warlord.  All of them peasants.  The british eliminated almost the entirety of the french administrative state when a bunch of commoners with shameful weapons executed the mounted nobility at agincourt.  The words their enemies used for them then read exactly like terrorist now.
 
Just food for thought.  As I said at the start, I agree with you....but the question I have..is do you think that democracies -do- fight with a hand tied behind their back?  Is democracy itself a martial weakness?”
 
This is not terrorism you are talking about. The problem before 1776 was that the Brit fought like gentlemen and you American used asymmetrical warfare tactics (jumping down from trees, hit and run tactics, countless ambushes etc.) against them.
 
And yes, medieval warfare was completely unethical and barbaric. But even then there was this myth about a past era in which people fought in a more human way. That’s the story behind the Legend of King Arthur. King Arthur had a council (the round table), his knights were all very brave and just persons. “The king is the nation / the people” as they say at the end of the movie Excalibur (1981).
 
So this is sort of coming back. Today’s wars (even WWI) are more civilized. Russians and Ukrainians are still exchanging prisoners among themselves. And at some point they even had deals about the Ukrainian grain (which is likely to resume at some point if you ask me). And yes: Ukrainians are thinking of holding elections in the middle of the war (which is unlikely because of the constitution but they are talking about it).
 
So what this “rising of energy” means is that we fight more like humans than before. And democracies are giving the example. According to some Guru’s, at some point we may just send drones to kill the leadership of our opponents without event engaging into a total war with our oponents. I think this might be very possible to witness within our lifetimes.

---

 

“Natural, Evolution, and Aquarian age don't go together.  Nothing about the latter in an extension of the formers.  We've always been this way.  If you read good war authors you come away with the sneaking suspicion that we will always be this way (and a whiff of their seething contempt for the states they fought for).  It was a good survival strategy once upon a time.  I share your concern, probably about different things but in general the same.  I think we need a global abolition movement focused on poverty.  It can't be based in spirituality, because spiritual truth is regional.  I get that your spirituality means something to you..and that you want the things that mean something to you to be The Solution..but lets allow for the possibility that they aren't and maybe even cannot be?  The US means alot to me (the idea, the place, the culture...that's my analog...all the things you think about your spirituality, the way it makes you feel..how obviously true it all seems...that's america to me)...but I don't think the US can be a part of unfucking the middle east anymore.  At least not as we are.”
 

- This is not about unfucking anyone. But how is this supposed to work if the US ….s all its allies and makes “deals” with all the dictators who want nothing but the destruction of America? I think Trump is a traitor. I think he works for the Chinese, or the Russians, or both.
 
You know: Yogananda had predicted this. He clearly said that “the communists” would attempt to takeover America from the inside. I think this is what is happening here.
 
BrianSoddingBoru:
 

“You seem to be differentiating between 'religion' and 'spirituality', once again answering a question that nobody asked.
 
My question was
 
Quote:
What exactly do you mean by ‘all true forms of spirituality'?”

 
A) It’s not irrational. It does not challenge reason or established scientifically facts.
b) It does not challenge or contradict basic human values.
c) It feels right. I mean: When you are in the presence of a sociopathic or narcissistic fake guru or spiritual teacher it doesn’t really feel good inside. People like Sadhguru for instance are the opposite of that. You feel good inside just by seeing them.
 
Desse23:
 

“I wasnt asking for the possibility of being wrong, but why you think you are RIGHT.
For the upteenth time: What the fuck is this "spirituality" you keep talking about? You just admitted that your "spiritual" approach to answering importantquestions of life has no methodology and you cant tell if is relusts are right or wrong.”
 

- Nothing to someone like you. But it still means something to me. I think it’s not such a terrible thing for all the reasons that were mentioned above.


 
 

“You know whats funny about your reply? You werent opposed in the least to my suggestion that you believe without good reason, but "comfort" that one triggered you enough to warrant a reply to me. Spirituality is, according to you, not about comfort, but is seems not to be about having good reasons either. What the fuck is it about then?
 
Why does it not bother you at all to believe without good reason?”

 
- Because I’m an amateur. True spiritual practitioners get to experience this “Truth” directly. It’s called Samadhi or Nirvana. That’s simply nor where I am yet.
 
But as I said. There are those benefits (not comfort, benefits). That make me continue on my path.
 

“...which is utter nonsense. Are you claiming that my "non spiritual" seeking for answers is not about truth? ...is less likely to be true? At this point you are just babbling, because you have nothing sensible whatsoever to answer to my very, very simple question.”

 
- No. I think that as atheists you have it all right. But in spirituality the mind is described as a tool. You can use it to cut the atom, cure cancer, and send satellites to outer-space. But this tool is useless in studying spiritual truths. A) Because spiritual truths do not exist or b) because there are issues in this world that cannot be solved with the mind alone.
 

“And me, being non-spiritual, can not ask this question? Are you fucking serious!?”

 
- No. You don’t believe in God or in “true spirituality”. To you all of it is mumbo Jumbo. But I can direct hard hitting questions to these guys to which they cannot find answers or to which they will answer with violence or something like that (sad but true)

 
“Ok, i get it, you are either incapable or unwilling to engage in honest discussion.
I keep asking why you answer questions with "spirituality" and and why you think you are possibly correct, and all i get back is "i am trying to answer questions".”
 

- Because I don’t know. I already agreed with the possibility of being entirely wrong. But there are still reasons for me to believe: Meditating and/or practicing Yoga on a regular basis are beneficial to most people. I find all of this is beneficial to me so I keep practicing. But what works for me may not work for you. SO me being right does not make you wrong.
 

“I was asking you about the philosophy of swami-whatever, why you think he is correct and its relation to history, and your answer is "Hollywood movie"!?
I keep asking you, over and fucking over as to why to believe this bullshit, but all i get back is a restatement of your beliefs. Guess what: Thats exactly how a religious person reacts.
 
Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy were the bronze age Minoans more civilized than the Classic Greek or Romans? Hint: they werent.”

 
- I don’t know if the scientific method can provide answers to everything. In fact I think it can’t. I think that if we don’t take this next step in our evolution, most of us will die. That’s why.
 

 
“Oh, conspiracy amongst all historians and all that?  Or more of "i dont give a shit about the truth of my beliefs" nor am i willing to justify them? Huh”

 
- See: that’s what everybody would tell me in an academic environment.
 
But as a civilian: I believe in this stuff. That’s because I believe that reason alone cannot solve all of our issues as human beings. I know that these explanations are all “unproven explanations”. But it makes sense on an individual level. 
 
Some people are hedonists for instance. They agree that life is not real so “pleasure” is the only reality. Some would argue that “science” is the only reality. Some people would say that “love” is the only reality. Not of this is proven let me remind you


 
 

“I am asking you about the history of humanity (according to swami soandso), and your answers are about Europe (and parts of the Near East) exclusively! I may regret this, but what the everlasting fuck is "energy"!?”

 
- This is just a theory I happen to believe in. Einstein demonstrated that energy and matter are related. These subtle energies I am mentioning are found in Yogic practices and other practices like Reiki and Acupuncture. Nobody has observed these energies. So again: That’s just stuff we happen to believe in. But when the energy level of the planet rises, we stop being mobs who are getting slaughtered by Emperor Justinian and his wife Theodora and we start becoming self-determining nations who have enough self-worth and “energy” to accomplish things like the end of racial segregation.
 
I can’t prove this. But I believe this is true.
 

“In 410AD 25-25mio people lived in Europe and 35-45mio in China alone. Why is some random event in Rome in 410 relevant for the history of humanity!?
20-30mio people lived at this time in Meso America. You know about fucking Meso-America and its civilizations? At the time you and swami soandso claim the "dark ages" of humanity ended, those civilisations were in full bloom!!”

 
-  these were societies who practiced human sacrifice. Egypt before 1200 BC was when Egyptian women has almost equal rights with male Egyptians.
 
But this is a new theory (the Theory of Yugas). I only mentioned it because it helps me to understand why so many people support authoritarian rulers even in place like Europe.
 

“People could not understand arithmetic or literature even with the best teachers, because of low spiritual energy levels!? What the fuck dude!? You are so far down your "spiritual" rabbit hole there is no help for you.”

 
- I think this is still true for some people even today. But the theory states that is you took some ordinary roman citizen and gave them access to modern education, they would end like Beavis and Butthead in the 1990’s series being unable to understand most of what you are trying to teach them.
 
If I am wrong: Than who is supporting these populist fools all over Europe? I say this is not just “ignorance”. I say it’s the “energy”. But that’s probably pure crazy talk to you so let’s not dwell on this any longer.

[Angrboda]

Angrboda:
 

“The fact that it is in every major spiritual teaching is not an argument that it is correct. The spiritual traditions could all be wrong on this point. This is nothing more than a thinly veiled argument ad populum.”

  
- You know Neanderthals had bigger brains than us (they really did). What made the Sapiens specie strong was its ability to communicate with one another and act together more effectively than most other hominid species. Our very ability to have compassion to one another made us strong.

None of this addresses the fallacy at the heart of what you wrote. This is an example of ignoratio elenchi, aka ignorance of necessary proof. Even if what you say is true, your initial conclusion still would not be reliably true.
 

“I think that if you asked most religious people whether their beliefs were rooted in baseless dogma, you would have an argument. Your assertions that religion is dogmatic and your spirituality is not seems to be a dogmatic belief that you hold.”

 
- That is a good point. But I never simply trusted anybody just because it sounded good. There is a whole process of thoughts and learning and unlearning that goes on here. And I’m still not anywhere near the finish line.
 
But today there is this constellation of spiritual thinkers who really bring us rather good solution to our existential issues as humans. Could they all be wrong? – Maybe. But that’s not my opinion.
 

You didn't invent these spiritual concepts and ideas. You are literally following in ruts trod by prior thinkers and practitioners. You are simply picking and choosing the dogmas and beliefs which appeal to you. That's still dogmatism because you got your truths from someone else based upon their supposed credentials as spiritual authorities. There is nothing new under the sun in anything you are posting or doing. The fact that you have chosen a specific cart of ideas to follow does not change the fact that you are still a dog, tethered to a cart, powerless to deviate from the path you are led down.

---

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

“You seem to be differentiating between 'religion' and 'spirituality', once again answering a question that nobody asked. 
 
My question was 
 
Quote:
What exactly do you mean by ‘all true forms of spirituality'?”

 
A) It’s not irrational. It does not challenge reason or established scientifically facts.
b) It does not challenge or contradict basic human values.
c) It feels right. I mean: When you are in the presence of a sociopathic or narcissistic fake guru or spiritual teacher it doesn’t really feel good inside. People like Sadhguru for instance are the opposite of that. You feel good inside just by seeing them.

c) negates A) and b). It is neither rational nor scientifically valid to accept that a proposition is true because it ‘feels right’ and ‘basic human values’ mutate with a dizzying frequency.

Boru

[Angrboda]

There's an interesting conundrum here. Spirituality, as you have defined it, is not in the business of providing reliable conclusions based upon reason and justification. You argue that the processes of reason which can provide reliable and justifiable conclusions are mute on the subject of spirituality. So reason cannot provide an form of appeal that establishes that your spirituality is related to truth. And your spirituality can't provide it, because, being mute on the means and methods of establishing what is true, it cannot speak on its own behalf. So you have an intractable problem, namely how do you establish that your spirituality is a form of truth? And the answer is literally that you can't get there from here. You've painted yourself into a corner from which there is no escape, and you are too ineffectual and clueless to realize it.

[The Grand Nudger]

This is not terrorism you are talking about. The problem before 1776 was that the Brit fought like gentlemen and you American used asymmetrical warfare tactics (jumping down from trees, hit and run tactics, countless ambushes etc.) against them.
 
And yes, medieval warfare was completely unethical and barbaric. But even then there was this myth about a past era in which people fought in a more human way. That’s the story behind the Legend of King Arthur. King Arthur had a council (the round table), his knights were all very brave and just persons. “The king is the nation / the people” as they say at the end of the movie Excalibur (1981).
 
So this is sort of coming back. Today’s wars (even WWI) are more civilized. Russians and Ukrainians are still exchanging prisoners among themselves. And at some point they even had deals about the Ukrainian grain (which is likely to resume at some point if you ask me). And yes: Ukrainians are thinking of holding elections in the middle of the war (which is unlikely because of the constitution but they are talking about it).
 
So what this “rising of energy” means is that we fight more like humans than before. And democracies are giving the example. According to some Guru’s, at some point we may just send drones to kill the leadership of our opponents without event engaging into a total war with our oponents. I think this might be very possible to witness within our lifetimes.

Russia will sign a grain deal with ukraine as soon as they're sure they've burned every ukranian field and bombed every ukranian grain port and sunk or crippled every ukranian grain ship.  In the meantime they'll cry salty tears about their own lost profits to whomever might be foolish enough to be sympathetic towards their bold faced bullshit..for whatever reason.  Not that it would matter if they did sign another agreement..because within 24 hours of signing those agreements you're thinking about russia struck grain infrastructure with kaliber missiles and kept doing it until, a year and many strikes later, they formally "withdrew".  They're bad faith negotiators, always.

I get that there's this story about conflict becoming more civilized, or more noble or honorable, or having once been - but I think it's at least worth exploring whether it ever actually was.  I doubt anyone at the pointy end of a short stick ever thought so.  As for the idea that sending a machine to kill people will make war more civil..I doubt it. That certainly wasn;t anyones impression of the onset of industrial warfare...and the idea of a decapitation attack is great...but the execution is historically spotty. They're protected. They surround themselves with layers of defense and protection (in war and in peace) that normal people cannot expect to enjoy...but the weapon is already launched, and weapons want to be used...so down the drone comes on the nearest swingset in lieu of El Jefe.

- This is not about unfucking anyone. But how is this supposed to work if the US ….s all its allies and makes “deals” with all the dictators who want nothing but the destruction of America? I think Trump is a traitor. I think he works for the Chinese, or the Russians, or both.
 
You know: Yogananda had predicted this. He clearly said that “the communists” would attempt to takeover America from the inside. I think this is what is happening here.

They aren't...but that exact pitch is what the reich wing is currently running on in this country.  That's what the mad king and his courtiers are lying about right now in the hopes that they wont all end up out on their asses for a generation before they can permanently capture our government and keep us under perpetual minority control. It's always the same with fortune tellers.  They mumble some nonsense and the afflicted need only wait until such a time that..if you squint at it just so under the right phase of the moon, it looks like something vaguely present shaped.  Then it gets really loopy.  People mistake the "truth" of these "predictions" as a certifier of other things said fortune tellers mumble.  As an indication of their wisdom or their insight.  

They're con men, and you're an eager mark. They don't know a fucking thing except for how to separate you from your money or dignity, and preferably in that order. Every minute spent on their drivel is a minute that could have been spent on things that might actually help, on things that weren't so comically untrue and pointless. Then different holy men say different holy things and before you know it we have sectarian tension and conflict. Thus..."spirituality" is not only not the solution...but becomes and active impediment to solving a given problem.

Maybe...just like there is no such thing as a civil war...there is no such thing as a holy man? Maybe people can't actually predict the future no matter what they pray to our how they practice their breathing?

[The Grand Nudger]

Putin gets his very own reply. The myth (and running joke) of Putin the master strategist was largely authored by putin and his hangers on. He was a nobody until he made a deal that a smarter and more patriotic person might never have even considered. He brought the crumbling remnants of the state apparatus into the same tent with organized crime. That granted him power..which he used to stage a false flag attack on his own country, blaming "terrorists" and launching them into a series of revanchist imperial forever wars which the country cannot support. He certainly believed that attacking an even poorer country than his own would be a cakewalk...but he wasn't secure enough in his own rule to let the military plan it - that went to the fsb - having remade it as his own little goon squad. Turns out they might be good at holding domestics under thumb...but they're shit at dealing with ukranians...and getting worse, not better.

[Angrboda]

“People could not understand arithmetic or literature even with the best teachers, because of low spiritual energy levels!? What the fuck dude!? You are so far down your "spiritual" rabbit hole there is no help for you.”

 
- I think this is still true for some people even today. But the theory states that is you took some ordinary roman citizen and gave them access to modern education, they would end like Beavis and Butthead in the 1990’s series being unable to understand most of what you are trying to teach them.
 
If I am wrong: Than who is supporting these populist fools all over Europe? I say this is not just “ignorance”. I say it’s the “energy”. But that’s probably pure crazy talk to you so let’s not dwell on this any longer.

If you are not willing to accept that another party can meet you on your own terms and in good faith, then you've given up before things have even begun. That's cowardly.