Morality

[ElDinero]

im early 20s. This the argument my gf puts across to me also. So I cannot verify what it was like exactly in those times, but only from what people say, so I guess in that sense I cannot really make a true comparison. But yes it would be the media, but also the older generations that have highlighted the stark differences in current society and past society.

Well when I think of religious societies that are still very violent I immediately think of the islamic countries in the east. But again like I said i feel this may also have a cultural/ east vs west dimension to it as I find most christian communities/ countries to be very peaceful.

Do you indeed? Why don't you tell it to Northern Ireland, right on your own doorstep? Here are some other Christian countries:

Russia
Colombia
Uganda
Rwanda
Zimbabwe
Nigeria
Mexico
Brazil
Serbia

Are you sure about that? Shall I continue?

Older generations, like the media that caters to them, have an idea of the past that is provably untrue. When your grandparents were children, their parents probably thought society had gone to the dogs too. It's like a study that showed that every generation thought that the English language was worse than it was when they were a child. It's just a kind of nostalgia that leads people to these conclusions, and they're all a load of shit.

[MilesTailsPrower]

Look at the statistics of Atheist in jail compared to religious people? There is a number of genocides of murder, in the name of the 'Lord'. The last thing I'll take moral values from is the bible. I think morals come from common sense, more than anything. Most of which, the way you are raised. The bible shouldn't have to teach you how to act right in contemporary society, it's a parents job, and your job.

Sources: Ignorant pricks at school :p

[Darwinian]

The Bible is a great source of validity for bigots.

[The Grand Nudger]

The bible is a great source for anything, judging by the amount (and wide variety) of merchandise for sale.

[Welsh cake]

You say lad so I may guess you may be from the U.K also. I can agree to an extent that some secular societies are less barbaric than religious ones.

Hold on a minute, not trying to derail the thread here, but are we talking about the same United Kingdom here? Ace didn't insinuate the UK was ever a secular state, because its clearly not, you're making the loose comparison when he was actually talking about Sweden.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_state

[TeslaTrooper]

Its basically a concept I have been grappling with for a while. For those of us who aren't religious or live in secular societies, it would appear that their is a significant correlation with the decline in morality, and the decline in religion. In the past In my country, Christianity provided a "moral guideline" if you will for how we should live our lives

For the most part this "past morality" you speak of was an illusion. Throughout history, violence has always gone hand in hand with religion, and due to the church's vice-grip control over the uneducated masses, morally reprehensible acts were simply kept in secret far better than they are today. People are people, and the same desires to be free and live the life you choose existed every bit as much 500 years ago as they do today.

... if there is no God and if religion is a farce, then who is to say that the way they are living/behaving is wrong?

Why do you need someone to tell you what is wrong? You do realize that it's just going to be their own subjective opinion anyway right?

For me this is how I define "wrong": Does my action hurt someone else? (not offend - HURT) In addition, is my action so self-serving that in the long run, someone is going to have to pay dearly for it. (ie. dumping toxic waste into an aquifer that is meant to sustain life for hundreds of years)


Also, the christians version of morality and the muslims version of morality differ greatly. Which god should we rely on for this morality you THINK we are lacking??

Well thats the problem. Morality differs between religions and people within the same religions. Also differes between athiests. I guess morality could be looked at in terms of doing wrong or harm to others. But it would still conflict. I.e it is moral to be truthful. I tell my wife she is fat. Im behaving in a good way by not telling lies, but I still cause her upset, by telling her shes fat.

I do feel the beauty of free choice, is that we have the power within ourselves to behave appropriately, and in a kind way without restrictions imposed on us.

The problem i see in the u.k is that people arent making the right choices, and the concept of right or wrong has been either blurred or lost for many people.

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im early 20s. This the argument my gf puts across to me also. So I cannot verify what it was like exactly in those times, but only from what people say, so I guess in that sense I cannot really make a true comparison. But yes it would be the media, but also the older generations that have highlighted the stark differences in current society and past society.

Well when I think of religious societies that are still very violent I immediately think of the islamic countries in the east. But again like I said i feel this may also have a cultural/ east vs west dimension to it as I find most christian communities/ countries to be very peaceful.

Do you indeed? Why don't you tell it to Northern Ireland, right on your own doorstep? Here are some other Christian countries:

Russia
Colombia
Uganda
Rwanda
Zimbabwe
Nigeria
Mexico
Brazil
Serbia

Are you sure about that? Shall I continue?

Older generations, like the media that caters to them, have an idea of the past that is provably untrue. When your grandparents were children, their parents probably thought society had gone to the dogs too. It's like a study that showed that every generation thought that the English language was worse than it was when they were a child. It's just a kind of nostalgia that leads people to these conclusions, and they're all a load of shit.

Ok they may be christian countries as such, but if we take examples of modern day Christians or Jews or whoever, in the u.k for example. To me they always come across as very peaceful and accepting people. Perhaps because what many christians are following these days is a different kind of Christianity it was 100 years ago. I don't hear the vicar in my local parish talking about smiting heathens and non beleivers. I believe largely Christianity or at least some sects/versions of it, have evolved somewhat from its early beginnings.

But again for me its all about how religion has been interpreted. You can choose passages that talk about love and forgiveness, but also passages about stoning people to death. I read a few passage out of the bible once. It was all about how the non believing Egyptians were going to be wiped out. It occurred to me, that the bible was very contextual to the middle east palestine, egypt syria region. Which would suggest there was a geographical restraint to it (in those times the world was not as connected as it is now). It made me wonder, why there was not going to be a vengeful wrath upon the nordic pagans, or the Oriental cultures. In fact they arent mentioned at all. If god was all seeing and all knowing, why only reek havoc upon egypt. Why not cast his all powerful vengence upon the other heathens too.

Potentially, but I still feel that there were societal norms that allowed for a more harmonious atmosphere during that particular period. Again I dont just think it is a religious issue, I think there are many other issues involved. But I still feel that those who are preaching a particular form of christianity i.e about love and compassion are incredibly peaceful people.

But then again we see the catholic priests messing around with kids...........

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Look at the statistics of Atheist in jail compared to religious people? There is a number of genocides of murder, in the name of the 'Lord'. The last thing I'll take moral values from is the bible. I think morals come from common sense, more than anything. Most of which, the way you are raised. The bible shouldn't have to teach you how to act right in contemporary society, it's a parents job, and your job.

Sources: Ignorant pricks at school :p

The problem is, so many parents are ignorant. Perhaps the state should try disciplining us more as kids, less about the individual and more about the society? My mum told me that when she was little, if she misbehaved in public other older people would intervene and tell her off, perhaps even give her a clip round the ear. If you did that now it would be assault. As we saw from the riots, and from my experience we arent taught respect, and whats right and wrong as much anymore.

I believe the state and society in general have more of a role to play, as the parents can only do so much. For example I was taught right from wrong, what to do and what not to do. By my parents and loosely in school too. I however have still done things I shouldnt have done as a teenager mostly rebellious childish stuff. For example once when drunk I threw my takeaway at a police car windscreen as he was driving then ran away. At the time it was hilarious, but what would have happened if they crashed or something?

Again I dont think fear is the best motivator, i.e fear of police fear of parents etc. But public condemnation and its effects are a strong motivator. A muslim friend of mine, told me in his village, if someone steals, then the whole village would scourn them, and there would be shame on him and his family. Ive been told it was a little bit like that here in the 50s and early 60s.

I dont feel we have a strong enough community to be like that anymore. I dont even know half of the neighbours on my street.

Again all seperate issues not directly related to religion, but worth stating all the same.

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You say lad so I may guess you may be from the U.K also. I can agree to an extent that some secular societies are less barbaric than religious ones.

Hold on a minute, not trying to derail the thread here, but are we talking about the same United Kingdom here? Ace didn't insinuate the UK was ever a secular state, because its clearly not, you're making the loose comparison when he was actually talking about Sweden.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_state

But the U.k is a secular state? the church and state are seperate. Im not quite sure I follow you...

[ElDinero]

Dude, Northern Ireland is PART OF THE UK! Your whole point is completely fallacious. All you've managed to reach now is that 'most Christians in the UK are peaceful'. Yes, and that's because of the change in the moral zeitgeist, largely brought about by secular people and groups. Religion has been forced to adapt to these societal norms or be frozen out. The Church is populist by its very nature, it couldn't still support slavery, even though the church was in favour of it a century ago, because it needs people to follow it.

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with the geographical stuff. The Bible doesn't mention Scandinavia because it had no clue about it. The people who wrote the Bible hadn't been there and didn't know what the people were like, or that there were even any people there. It's the same reason it only refers to animals that existed in that region of the world. Where are all the polar bears and marsupials on the ark? Again, not sure what you're angling at here.

To be honest, your thoughts on almost every point you've made are either based on nothing or just extremely muddled. The thing about most Christians in the UK being peaceful is just a reflection on the fact that most people generally in the UK are peaceful. You wouldn't believe it to read the front page of the Daily Mail but even the recent riots were the actions of a tiny, tiny minority. Your original argument that it is in any meaningful way related to the decline in religion is just to ignore history, like the way you glossed over my list of countries above. What do you mean 'ok, they may be Christian countries as such'? Why don't they qualify?

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On the subject of whether the UK is a secular state, by the way, it's an oddity in that to the letter of the law it is definitely not a secular country. The Queen is the head of the church and head of the state. We are officially a Christian nation. However, in practice, we really act in a more or less secular way, and the ties to the church are usually ceremonial in nature. Almost the exact opposite of the USA, in fact.

[TeslaTrooper]

Dude, Northern Ireland is PART OF THE UK! Your whole point is completely fallacious. All you've managed to reach now is that 'most Christians in the UK are peaceful'. Yes, and that's because of the change in the moral zeitgeist, largely brought about by secular people and groups. Religion has been forced to adapt to these societal norms or be frozen out. The Church is populist by its very nature, it couldn't still support slavery, even though the church was in favour of it a century ago, because it needs people to follow it.

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with the geographical stuff. The Bible doesn't mention Scandinavia because it had no clue about it. The people who wrote the Bible hadn't been there and didn't know what the people were like, or that there were even any people there. It's the same reason it only refers to animals that existed in that region of the world. Where are all the polar bears and marsupials on the ark? Again, not sure what you're angling at here.

To be honest, your thoughts on almost every point you've made are either based on nothing or just extremely muddled. The thing about most Christians in the UK being peaceful is just a reflection on the fact that most people generally in the UK are peaceful. You wouldn't believe it to read the front page of the Daily Mail but even the recent riots were the actions of a tiny, tiny minority. Your original argument that it is in any meaningful way related to the decline in religion is just to ignore history, like the way you glossed over my list of countries above. What do you mean 'ok, they may be Christian countries as such'? Why don't they qualify?

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On the subject of whether the UK is a secular state, by the way, it's an oddity in that to the letter of the law it is definitely not a secular country. The Queen is the head of the church and head of the state. We are officially a Christian nation. However, in practice, we really act in a more or less secular way, and the ties to the church are usually ceremonial in nature. Almost the exact opposite of the USA, in fact.

The bible reference was basically suggesting it was all garbage, as it was heavily contextual to that time period and region.

Well I agree with what you are saying in that Christians in England are largely peaceful perhaps because English people themselves are peaceful. Same goes for those countries you labelled as violent such as those mentioned in South America. Perhaps christians are violent because their society is violent, not because they are christians. I agree that religion has been forced to adapt to the modern world, but I feel now that in England it is Christians that appear to be leading the way in terms of morality (back to original point). Maybe we as non believers need to similarly adapt to some of the ideals that the church are advocating without being religious.

For example one of my friends attended an evangelical church, and stated " I tried to brainwash myself into believing it. Its a shame the sense of community and moral standards didnt have to come with a serving of bullshit".

I wouldn't qualify those other countries as Christian countries, as I dont feel they are pushing an overbearing Christian agenda. Take Spain for example. Very catholic society, recently had a visit from the pope. When I go to spain I dont feel that the state and catholicism are intertwined, I still feel there is a seperation

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But yes I would agree. My arguments, thought processes theories are often quite muddled, conflicting and difficult to follow in a rashional manner. I guess one of the reasons for this is either im mentally unstable, or quite unsure on alot of issues. Either way its worth exploring further

[Welsh cake]

But the U.k is a secular state? the church and state are seperate. Im not quite sure I follow you...

No, we're not. There's been a grown in the number of irreligious people here yes but I honestly don't know whatever made you think that.

Look up Nonconformism. At best, the UK as a whole is "ambiguous". When you look at the four comprising countries: England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, do you realise all of which each have their own respective officially established religious institution, not to mention all the amendments and laws passed such as 'The Acts of Union 1707' that ensure that there would never be a "Papist" succession to the Crown, and maintaining a link between church and state, do you realise the UK is anything but secular.

Heck, common law offences of blasphemy and blasphemous libel were only just abolished in 2008.

The UK has a long way to go before it can stand shoulder to shoulder with the USA, in more ways than one.

[ElDinero]

I agree that religion has been forced to adapt to the modern world, but I feel now that in England it is Christians that appear to be leading the way in terms of morality (back to original point). Maybe we as non believers need to similarly adapt to some of the ideals that the church are advocating without being religious.

I wouldn't qualify those other countries as Christian countries, as I dont feel they are pushing an overbearing Christian agenda.

Ok, I've asked this already, with regard to this first point, on what basis do you claim that Christians are leading the way in terms of morality? What's your data for this? Can you point to any examples? I think you are displaying enormous selective memory. Of course we all know Christians who are good people and do community work and display a moral compass, and the kind of passive religion you're describing is common here in the UK. But churches have historically been the LAST to change their stances on issues of morality, and this is still visible in the world today when you look at issues surrounding sex and science. One day, the church will support stem cell research and some already promote contraception, but it's really only because they can't get away with denouncing it any more. Make no mistake, if the Mormon church could still be an officially racist organisation as it still was in the 1970s, they would be.

The second part of your post that I've quoted above is just bollocks. Just because you haven't been there and experienced it, and it's not as widely reported in the media, doesn't mean it isn't happening. If you went to one of those countries, you could easily find yourself persecuted, threatened or attacked just for saying you weren't a Christian. Many of them are currently, right now, fighting wars down strictly religious lines against neighbouring countries that follow Islam/Judaism/something else. So don't even try and speculate that they don't push a Christian agenda just because it doesn't suit your argument.

I don't understand why you're persisting with this. It simply is not true that Christians or religious people generally are more moral than the average person. To say we need to adapt to their teachings is to give them undue credit. You think concepts like 'love thy neighbour' and 'do to others as you would have done to you' are Christian concepts? They predate Abrahamic religions by thousands of years.