Poor writing, and it had nothing to do with lost in translation from a supreme being to a divinely inspired human.

What I said earlier.

Quote:If god is all knowing, why is he questioning them? He already knows, correct? Poor dialogue choices on part of the fallible writer who was clearly not divinely inspired whatsoever.

(October 19, 2018 at 1:10 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: So (literal interpretation mode) anyone have a clue why an omniscient god would be asking Adam and Eve questions like that? ...as if he didn't really know what was going on? He does it throughout the Bible. It's annoying.

I'm pretty sure in "the pilot episode" the writers of the script had not yet worked out that they wanted God to be omniscient. He was just some really smart deity guy with exceptional creative powers. But in a later episode, they needed to make him that way because they were adding some new plot elements, like the Final Judgement. Who wants to be judged by somebody who doesn't know what the fuck is going on? Nobody.

Yep to all that.

As a former Christian apologist, I used to think that God did know from the beginning what Adam and Eve were up to, but that he was using something like the Socratic method with them, to let them realize exactly what they have done or something.

(October 18, 2018 at 3:52 pm)Bahana Wrote:

(October 18, 2018 at 9:00 am)robvalue Wrote: I find it somewhat ironic that the only people who can’t fully appreciate bible stories as actual works in their own right are the people who value the book the most.

Some of the stories, although highly flawed, are very powerful pieces told almost constantly through an unreliable narrator. It ruins this perspective if you have to assume that this stuff really happened, or that it somehow represents things that actually happened. It would be a bit like finding out your favourite film is actually about your best friend killing a load of children for no good reason, while rationalising and lying about it.

I guess Christians would say that it doesn’t ruin it, and that they can view them as stories as well. But they seem to spend more time trying to convince themselves and others that they aren’t simply fictional.

I agree. I can still appreciate the literary value of some parts of the Bible as an atheist. I would go as far as to say that you trample on the original author's intent by trying to find a way to harmonize different books of the Bible together that have been written centuries apart. Fundamentalists, and inerrantists, invite scrutiny to the Bible by saying all these legendary tales literally happened. I was taught that Adam and Eve, The Tower of Babel and Noah's flood were all true events at my Christian elementary school.

It probably doesn't work to apply a modern author/work of fiction idea to these ancient stories which probably evolved from an oral tradition.  But regardless, we are still in danger of missing the point of the story by virtue that attempt to impose an order to stories which have different lineages.

(October 19, 2018 at 1:15 am)Kit Wrote: Poor writing, and it had nothing to do with lost in translation from a supreme being to a divinely inspired human.

What I said earlier.

Quote:If god is all knowing, why is he questioning them? He already knows, correct? Poor dialogue choices on part of the fallible writer who was clearly not divinely inspired whatsoever.

ah, yes.... reminds me of........

Quote:Adam and Eve had just had sex for the first time. Adam was relaxing by a tree, when God's voice boomed down from above. 'You've just experienced sex for the first time. How was it?' Adam replies, 'Oh Lord, it was great. I've never felt so good in my life.'

God says, 'Where is Eve, thine wife?'
Adam replies, 'She is washing herself, down in the river.'

Suddenly, the skies turned dark and lightning flashed and thunder sounded. God became furious and said 'Nooo!!! Now I'll never get that smell out of the fish!!'

(October 19, 2018 at 1:39 am)Whateverist Wrote: It probably doesn't work to apply a modern author/work of fiction idea to these ancient stories which probably evolved from an oral tradition.  But regardless, we are still in danger of missing the point of the story by virtue that attempt to impose an order to stories which have different lineages.

I would think the biggest danger arises from attempting to make a story into a historical fact that should be accepted against reason.

(October 18, 2018 at 6:59 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(October 18, 2018 at 5:23 am)Grandizer Wrote: Ok, next passage:

The Fall

Probably the first philosophically interesting passage. Who would like to give this an analysis? Doesn't matter what type of analysis, anything is fine.

This has always struck me as - to put it mildly - a morally bankrupt story.  God punishes Adam and Eve for doing something they could not possibly have known was wrong.  Yes, he told them not to eat of the Tree Of Knowledge Of Good And Evil.  But until they gained that knowledge, they couldn't have known that disobeying God was an evil act.

Boru

Of course if you see God as representing in character-form something which is really a natural consequence then it is more comprehensible.  By becoming wiser we just do lose innocence and so symbolically eject ourselves from the garden of the innocents.  But in a time when no one has that insight, why not envision it as the vengeance of a spiteful god?

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(October 19, 2018 at 1:42 am)Kit Wrote:

(October 19, 2018 at 1:39 am)Whateverist Wrote: It probably doesn't work to apply a modern author/work of fiction idea to these ancient stories which probably evolved from an oral tradition.  But regardless, we are still in danger of missing the point of the story by virtue that attempt to impose an order to stories which have different lineages.

I would think the biggest danger arises from attempting to make a story into a historical fact that should be accepted against reason.

Yeah, I wasn't holding it up as the worst of the worse.  Your point is well taken, it just doesn't compete with mine since it is entirely separate.

(October 19, 2018 at 1:17 am)Grandizer Wrote: Yep to all that.

As a former Christian apologist, I used to think that God did know from the beginning what Adam and Eve were up to, but that he was using something like the Socratic method with them, to let them realize exactly what they have done or something.

You were a former Christian apologist? How far into that did you get? If you did it in formal settings, I might have to make a request for an "Ask a Former Christian Apologist" thread.

(October 19, 2018 at 1:51 am)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(October 19, 2018 at 1:17 am)Grandizer Wrote: Yep to all that.

As a former Christian apologist, I used to think that God did know from the beginning what Adam and Eve were up to, but that he was using something like the Socratic method with them, to let them realize exactly what they have done or something.

You were a former Christian apologist? How far into that did you get? If you did it in formal settings, I might have to make a request for an "Ask a Former Christian Apologist" thread.

Seconded!  It might even do more to help you move on from it than upbraiding still-practicing apologists.

(October 19, 2018 at 1:51 am)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(October 19, 2018 at 1:17 am)Grandizer Wrote: Yep to all that.

As a former Christian apologist, I used to think that God did know from the beginning what Adam and Eve were up to, but that he was using something like the Socratic method with them, to let them realize exactly what they have done or something.

You were a former Christian apologist? How far into that did you get? If you did it in formal settings, I might have to make a request for an "Ask a Former Christian Apologist" thread.

Nah, not that advanced, lol (I self-studied). Just an amateur at a similar level to Steve (though Steve has better rhetoric than I did).

That said, I did regularly interact online with a couple of "professional" apologists (on MSN).

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(October 19, 2018 at 1:54 am)Whateverist Wrote:

(October 19, 2018 at 1:51 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: You were a former Christian apologist? How far into that did you get? If you did it in formal settings, I might have to make a request for an "Ask a Former Christian Apologist" thread.

Seconded!  It might even do more to help you move on from it than upbraiding still-practicing apologists.

Man, you're going to hate me even more once I get to ...

(October 19, 2018 at 2:07 am)Grandizer Wrote:

(October 19, 2018 at 1:51 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: You were a former Christian apologist? How far into that did you get? If you did it in formal settings, I might have to make a request for an "Ask a Former Christian Apologist" thread.

Nah, not that advanced, lol (I self-studied). Just an amateur at a similar level to Steve (though Steve has better rhetoric than I did).

That said, I did regularly interact online with a couple of "professional" apologists (on MSN).

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(October 19, 2018 at 1:54 am)Whateverist Wrote: Seconded!  It might even do more to help you move on from it than upbraiding still-practicing apologists.

Man, you're going to hate me even more once I get to ...

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the Quran

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Nothing to hate that I can see.  Still if you actually started in on that could change.