Short and sweet. Yes Paul was evil. Paul does evil and does sin as the verse stated. Paul accepts the evil in him, and that evil is with him. What the verse doesn’t say is that sin can be good. Sin by definition is evil if God is good. We’re probably going to have to save this for a sidebar because we are supposed to be in genesis.

A preview of what's to happen in the next "episode" of the Atheist Bible Study (Genesis):

I like. Thank you for that awesome image.

Pretty sure the bit after that is illegal in the US.

The Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah
Genesis 19:1-29

Most of us are familiar with the account of Sodom and Gomorrah. God is pissed with both utterly wicked Sodom and utterly evil Gomorrah, so he sends down fire and brimstone on these two cities. The cities are destroyed, and pretty much everyone living there is killed as a result. The only inhabitants spared are Lot and his two daughters, who are led to another place to live.

Now for a detailed commentary on the passage:

The two angels, who were with God earlier visiting Abraham, arrive at Sodom and are noticed by Lot. Lot, taking after his uncle Abraham, bowed down to the ground before the two angels and offered to serve them. The angels were fine with spending the night outside, but Lot wouldn't have any of that. He invited them into his house and made food for them. Lot must've realized they were angels, or he was just a really welcoming person with strangers.

Now this is the part that baffles me. As if to illustrate just how sinful the city was, some Sodomites (young and old) gathered around Lot's house, wanting to have sex with the two men. Lot, being even more fucked up, offered them his two daughters instead.

Here's what he said to the people of Sodom outside his house:

Lot Wrote:No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.

Yeah ... them wanting to have sex with his two guests was a wicked thing to Lot, but Lot letting them have their way with his own two virgin daughters in order to protect his male guests was apparently ok ...



Anyway, the rowdy Sodomites weren't too happy about this and decided to break down the door to Lot's house.

And that's when the two angels finally show us their magnificent powers ... by blinding the intruders, so that they could no longer find the door.

Then the angels urged Lot and his family to quickly get the hell out of the city before it was burned down by God. Lot warned his sons-in-law about the impending doom, but they weren't going to take crazy old Lot seriously, so they stayed where they were. At the end, only Lot and his wife and daughters were dragged out (by the angels) from the city.

Once they were out of the city, the angels told them to go flee to the mountains and not look back. However, Lot was too old for this shit, so he begged them to spare a small town nearby so he could head there instead. The angels complied with his request. That town soon became known by the name "Zoar".

The next day had already arrived when Lot and his family finally reached Zoar. It was at this time that the Lord rained down the fires of destruction over both Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying everyone and everything in them. Unfortunately, Lot's wife looked back and was thus magically turned into a pillar of salt. Reminds me, by the way, of the tragic ancient Greek myth of Orpheus and Eurydice.

Near the end of the passage, we read about Abraham observing the destruction from a distance, with dense smoke rising from the fires. It was because God remembered Abraham that Lot was saved.

This story clearly looked to me like it was the ancient Jew's reconstruction of what they may have thought happened with a couple of ruined ancient cities that may have been observable to them. They may have also noted what looked like a pillar of salt outside of the cities, and thereby made a specific story out of that one as well. But that's just me speculating.

(December 17, 2018 at 10:00 am)Grandizer Wrote: This story clearly looked to me like it was the ancient Jew's reconstruction of what they may have thought happened with a couple of ruined ancient cities that may have been observable to them. They may have also noted what looked like a pillar of salt outside of the cities, and thereby made a specific story out of that one as well. But that's just me speculating.

There are apparently many odd salt formations around the dead sea. It isn't hard to see how they could be incorporated into a legend.

It's important to remember that this is the old testament, wherein God visited punishment for sin upon people in this life, not in a life to come. So death in the old testament is very much a punishment, and so, if unmerited, seems like a dick move by God. In the new testament, life before death is just a prelude to final and eternal judgement, so God killing people is less consequential. If I'm not mistaken, it also results in a lot fewer people being killed in the new testament.

(December 15, 2018 at 12:07 am)tackattack Wrote: Short and sweet. Yes Paul was evil. Paul does evil and does sin as the verse stated. Paul accepts the evil in him, and that evil is with him. What the verse doesn’t say is that sin can be good. Sin by definition is evil if God is good. We’re probably going to have to save this for a sidebar because we are supposed to be in genesis.

Actually the opposite.  Paul demonstrates he has no power over his sin, and while a sinner he demonstrates he is able to preach and teach the gospel and live the life Christ would have him live. But as soon as he embraces his sin then the division Paul makes between sin and evil and the division he makes with in himself (he calls his sinful 1/2 the old man who is slave to sin, and his redeemed 1/2 the new creature (born again) in Christ) When both agree and embrace sin, the sin then becomes evil. While God send Christ to die for our sins he did not die for our evil. If and when the new creature turns/repents from this sin (hates the sin) then the new creature can find atonement for his sin.

This whole story plays out from romans chapter 6 to 9

With in all of us there is a dual nature being/struggle taking place the carnal/old man a slave to sin and our spiritual hald born again by the Spirit who can choose whether or not to accept said sin or turn from it.

So no while paul sin and committed evil he was not an evil man because 1 Christ died to provide atonement and 2 because he used this offer of atonement to repent from his sin. with out both paul admits he would be evil but because of christ he is able to separate the sin he does/can not help from the man he wants to be.

This should the destruction of all legalistic churches. in that they claim we can/must live sin free after we accept Christ. while Paul Himself says this is not possible.

Now if you take this principle and apply it lot's lot... You will find the reason I said Abraham stopped after trying to find 10 "righteous." He saw that all the people he thought to be 'basically good people' were indeed wicked/evl at heart. now if you count lot his wife and daughters that means he could not find 6 and probably began to question lot's own family. he knew if he went to five that means all of lots family had to be righteous as well as one other person.

That is why I said Abraham probably began to doubt lot's people. Could you then imagine what would happen if Abraham found lot's wife to be as sinful as the rest of the city before they left? Lot and his daughters would also not want to go.

But as it was they were evacuated and lot's wife on the way out longed for the evil being destroyed which is why she was turned to salt.

So I judged that action evil as God did and turned her to a pillar of salt.

Then I judged the actions of the daughters who got him drunk to sleep with him. When is it ever ok to sleep with your father to have children.. matter of fact they knew this to be evil because they got him drunk first! As they knew he would not be a willing partner anyother way.

And again I was corrected by Peter but I also judged lot as being evil because of how much evil or how far evil was allowed into his family. His wife out of the city openly lamented the loss of the evil lifestyle and was punished and later his daughters turn to evil to have their way. But again that is me looking through the lens of the law and the only way lot could be counted as righteous is if the law did not apple to him as he was never exposed to the Law..

---

(December 17, 2018 at 10:00 am)Grandizer Wrote: The Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah
Genesis 19:1-29

Most of us are familiar with the account of Sodom and Gomorrah. God is pissed with both utterly wicked Sodom and utterly evil Gomorrah, so he sends down fire and brimstone on these two cities. The cities are destroyed, and pretty much everyone living there is killed as a result. The only inhabitants spared are Lot and his two daughters, who are led to another place to live.

Now for a detailed commentary on the passage:

The two angels, who were with God earlier visiting Abraham, arrive at Sodom and are noticed by Lot. Lot, taking after his uncle Abraham, bowed down to the ground before the two angels and offered to serve them. The angels were fine with spending the night outside, but Lot wouldn't have any of that. He invited them into his house and made food for them. Lot must've realized they were angels, or he was just a really welcoming person with strangers.

Now this is the part that baffles me. As if to illustrate just how sinful the city was, some Sodomites (young and old) gathered around Lot's house, wanting to have sex with the two men. Lot, being even more fucked up, offered them his two daughters instead.

Here's what he said to the people of Sodom outside his house:

Lot Wrote:No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.

Yeah ... them wanting to have sex with his two guests was a wicked thing to Lot, but Lot letting them have their way with his own two virgin daughters in order to protect his male guests was apparently ok ...



Anyway, the rowdy Sodomites weren't too happy about this and decided to break down the door to Lot's house.

And that's when the two angels finally show us their magnificent powers ... by blinding the intruders, so that they could no longer find the door.

Then the angels urged Lot and his family to quickly get the hell out of the city before it was burned down by God. Lot warned his sons-in-law about the impending doom, but they weren't going to take crazy old Lot seriously, so they stayed where they were. At the end, only Lot and his wife and daughters were dragged out (by the angels) from the city.

Once they were out of the city, the angels told them to go flee to the mountains and not look back. However, Lot was too old for this shit, so he begged them to spare a small town nearby so he could head there instead. The angels complied with his request. That town soon became known by the name "Zoar".

The next day had already arrived when Lot and his family finally reached Zoar. It was at this time that the Lord rained down the fires of destruction over both Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying everyone and everything in them. Unfortunately, Lot's wife looked back and was thus magically turned into a pillar of salt. Reminds me, by the way, of the tragic ancient Greek myth of Orpheus and Eurydice.

Near the end of the passage, we read about Abraham observing the destruction from a distance, with dense smoke rising from the fires. It was because God remembered Abraham that Lot was saved.

This story clearly looked to me like it was the ancient Jew's reconstruction of what they may have thought happened with a couple of ruined ancient cities that may have been observable to them. They may have also noted what looked like a pillar of salt outside of the cities, and thereby made a specific story out of that one as well. But that's just me speculating.

Even now in the middle east when a man invites you into his home he is responsible for you and your life with his own first. meaning if you are invited in, your host is expected to give his life before anything happens to you. not only that it is expected that he feed and take care of any needs you may have.

Lot offering his two daughters to me is just pure evil , but again I am one who lives under a system of laws not privy to him thus he is not responsible for them. To him, his law demanded his life or rather those men having sex with him before his guests, which to him I guess it seemed more logical to offer the girls...
IDK..
BTW how ugly where those girls when two dudes  and lot's old behind are more palatable?

Or sodom and gomorrah where notoriously known for raping men who passed by and those cities and was eventually randomly obliterated by meteors or maybe the raped the wrong Moff tarkin and the city was melted down by orbital barrage from some sort of star destroyer. Or maybe idk it happened the way the bible says..

Drich, tack: That sounds like a new testament discussion which might be better had in its own thread.

(December 17, 2018 at 10:48 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: It's important to remember that this is the old testament, wherein God visited punishment for sin upon people in this life, not in a life to come.  So death in the old testament is very much a punishment, and so, if unmerited, seems like a dick move by God.  In the new testament, life before death is just a prelude to final and eternal judgement, so God killing people is less consequential.  If I'm not mistaken, it also results in a lot fewer people being killed in the new testament.

Punishment only came after the covenant. Meaning after Moses was given the law he was also given a promise which basically stated if you follow the law I will bless you and your coming generations in this life. Which is what the books of judges is all about. God establishes the law the jews follow for a time they fall away God sends a 'judge' they are punished in one form or another plague captivity war ect, they repent and they start all over for two whole books of the bible. 

Now God killing the people like here at sodom and gomorrah, is different because here and like in the case of the ark.. People of that time simply cried out to God because the evil of men here in these cities was so great God was compelled to act. like wise with the ark the evil of man was so great God want to start over. Or god killed people who threatened his great plan to bring atonement an salvation via Jesus through the Jews. Meaning anyone threatening the jews or the line of Christ were destroyed. whether it be a tribe or a whole people. Not really a crime and punishment more of a protect salvation by sugerically removing the dangerous people who would take away the line of Christ and thus doom the world

The reason there is less killing in the NT is because the covenant has changed. Now it is not about following the law. now it is about love. God gave us the law so that we may over many thousands of years truly understand Agape'