Late to the party, but whatever.

(June 23, 2021 at 2:10 pm)Frank Apisa Wrote: I’ve known and been friends with many individuals who use “atheist” as a descriptor …and to a person, each of them has one of the following two beliefs, opinions, or guesses:

1)      There are no gods.
2)      It is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one god.

I’m wondering if this is a universal truth (or close to a universal truth)  about people who use the descriptor…so what better place to ask it than an Internet Atheist Forum…and what better people to ask than people who use the descriptor?

Do any of you know people who use the descriptor “atheist” to describe themselves, but who do not subscribe to at least one of the two items mentioned above?

Is it your opinion that asserting one or both is universal to people who apply the descriptor to themselves?

My atheism only exists as a standard reply about a lack of belief in the proposition "Do you believe God exists?", full stop. Likewise with my agnosticism, it is only a standard reply about a lack of knowledge in the proposition "Do you know God exists?", full stop.

That theists can't grasp these standard positions is their problem, as I think they're entirely intelligible. As such, for 1), I neither confirm or dismiss it, it's simply N/A. 2) is slightly interesting, except it is, for me, like arguing how many elves Santa Claus is employing.

Well, I tend to take a different tack. There are people who know things, but there are certainly people who don't know what is or isn't true, but do know what they believe, and strongly believe. These are agnostic atheists and theists.

Which are you? Do you believe that your religion is true, or do you know it?

Knowledge is simply a level of certainty about a belief. It’s a matter of degree. Why @Frank Apisa feels the need to over-complicate that, I don’t know. I also don’t know what he thinks he’ll get from coming here and telling a bunch of strangers how certain they are or aren’t about their beliefs about a god.

(June 25, 2021 at 6:00 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Knowledge is simply a level of certainty about a belief. It’s a matter of degree. Why @Frank Apisa feels the need to over-complicate that, I don’t know. I also don’t know what he thinks he’ll get from coming here and telling a bunch of strangers how certain they are or aren’t about their beliefs about a god.

Some older people think they know better when they reach a certain age. Just ask Trump.

(June 25, 2021 at 3:53 pm)Frank Apisa Wrote:

(June 25, 2021 at 3:48 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: Agnostic and Gnostic Refer to knowledge. Theist and Atheist refer to belief.

Yeah...theists "believe" there is at least one god; atheists "believe" there are none.

Two sides of one coint.

(I know, I know...the atheist fiction comes out here. "All we are doing is lacking 'belief.'")

Horseshit. You people do "believe" there are no gods...or you "believe" it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one."

People who call themselves "atheists" are as much "believers" as people who designate themselves theists.

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(June 25, 2021 at 3:48 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Okay. Anything else you want to get off your chest, or…?

Not really. Are you about to drop the axe?

Highlighted the important bit.

Now your making assertions. I don't think that will benefit fit you.

This isn't that hard. People here identify as atheist, Each one likely has a slightly different interpretation of what exactly that means but suffice to say it all boils down to not believing a in god or gods. You can ask each one to elaborate on that if you choose but it seems pointless.

However, this statement of yours is starting to shed light on your actual beliefs.

(June 25, 2021 at 3:53 pm)Frank Apisa Wrote:

(June 25, 2021 at 3:48 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: Agnostic and Gnostic Refer to knowledge. Theist and Atheist refer to belief.

Yeah...theists "believe" there is at least one god; atheists "believe" there are none.

Two sides of one coint.

(I know, I know...the atheist fiction comes out here. "All we are doing is lacking 'belief.'")

Horseshit. You people do "believe" there are no gods...or you "believe" it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one."

People who call themselves "atheists" are as much "believers" as people who designate themselves theists.

I actually describe myself as religiously unaffiliated, but by the general consensus of atheists, I am an atheist. I think I'm definitely one of "you people."

I've already stated quite clearly that I can't say much about gods in general, so what you say is false on that score.

But you've already asked about your definition of gods. As I noted at the time, I think your definition includes things that are not gods and so I see no point in discussing it. There is a theory that we might live in a simulated universe. There's nothing about creating such a simulation which requires any godlike characteristics. We might be able to do so at some point in the future. We might be able to do so now. The creators of such a simulation, if they are like us, are responsible for the creation of what we refer to as the physical universe, and by definition are therefore gods. I'm completely agnostic about such gods, and so what you say is again contradicted.

The problem is that you're trying to create an equivalence between believing there are no gods and knowing there are no gods. An atheist is free to believe there are no gods, and they are free to be agnostic, not knowing, whether there are no gods. You seem to want there to be a contradiction between being an atheist and being an agnostic. I don't think there is any conflict.

But you say that you define an atheist as someone who identifies as atheist. That suggests to me an interesting thought experiment. Let's say you're learning Chinese, and you know a good bit of Chinese but have yet to learn the word for atheist. Now suppose you're talking to a person who speaks only Chinese, and you want him to tell you what the Chinese word for atheist is. Stating it in English, what would you ask your Chinese friend in order to get him to tell you the word for atheist in Chinese?

(June 25, 2021 at 5:39 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: This is true, there can't be a person named Frank who is really agnostic, who honestly thinks that Zeus may or may not exist. And if Frank is not agnostic towards Zeus, he is not agnostic. QED

Ye gods and little green grasshoppers that's stupid. See Frank? This is the bar that you have to slink under to get banned around here.

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(June 25, 2021 at 4:45 pm)Frank Apisa Wrote: I am not wrong...and you know it.

That's a fascinating belief.

The dictionary shows that you're wrong, but you believe otherwise.

Atheists have told you that you're wrong about what they believe, but you believe otherwise.

And yes, you believe. You hold something to be true in spite of a lack of evidence and/or evidence to the contrary.

You keep arguing that your beliefs about atheism are right when atheists have told you their wrong. Little wonder you're being told to pound sand.

(June 25, 2021 at 5:29 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I hardly matter anymore.  Kloro just informed us that you don't exist.  He knows that I do, but affirmatively claims that you do not.  Discuss.

Are you really an agnostic, is that really a thing?  I don't believe you.  Let's start easy.  Is there one god, and is mohammed his prophet?

1) My position is an agnostic one. I offered it several times. 

2) I really do not give a shit what you "believe."

3)  I have no idea if ANY gods exist...and if any do, I have no idea if it is one or many.

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(June 25, 2021 at 5:39 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(June 25, 2021 at 5:33 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I’m agnostic.

You're not. I know that you know Zeus doesn't exist. This makes you a strong atheist towards Zeus, for example.

(June 25, 2021 at 5:29 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I hardly matter anymore.  Kloro just informed us that you don't exist.  He knows that I do, but affirmatively claims that you do not.  Discuss.

Are you really an agnostic, is that really a thing?  I don't believe you.  Let's start easy.  Is there one god, and is mohammed his prophet?

This is true, there can't be a person named Frank who is really agnostic, who honestly thinks that Zeus may or may not exist. And if Frank is not agnostic towards Zeus, he is not agnostic. QED

So...there are still assholes who think that if you do not know some things...that means you do not know anything.

The atheists in this forum are not very bright. Too bad. I was hoping this might be a decent atheist forum.

As I have said, and which some not very bright people cannot understand, on the question of whether there are any gods or not...I simply do not know...and I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess.

That is just the truth.

You atheist assholes seem to hate the truth as much as America's right wing assholes hate the truth.

Wonder why that is?

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(June 26, 2021 at 4:54 am)Paleophyte Wrote:

(June 25, 2021 at 5:39 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: This is true, there can't be a person named Frank who is really agnostic, who honestly thinks that Zeus may or may not exist. And if Frank is not agnostic towards Zeus, he is not agnostic. QED

Ye gods and little green grasshoppers that's stupid. See Frank? This is the bar that you have to slink under to get banned around here.

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(June 25, 2021 at 4:45 pm)Frank Apisa Wrote: I am not wrong...and you know it.

That's a fascinating belief.

The dictionary shows that you're wrong, but you believe otherwise.

Atheists have told you that you're wrong about what they believe, but you believe otherwise.

And yes, you believe. You hold something to be true in spite of a lack of evidence and/or evidence to the contrary.

You keep arguing that your beliefs about atheism are right when atheists have told you their wrong. Little wonder you're being told to pound sand.

1)  It is not a belief. It is an opinion.

2)  There is no such thing as "the dictionary." There are dictionaries. And some say that I am correct. 

3)  Most atheists do not tell me that I am wrong about what they "believe"...they try to sell the bullshit that they do not do "believing." Glad we both realize they are bull of shit.

4)  I do not do believing. I do not hold anything to be true despite a lack of evidence.

5)  I do not care if people tell me to pound sand. I say, "Fuck 'em!"

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(June 25, 2021 at 9:55 pm)Angrboda Wrote:

(June 25, 2021 at 3:53 pm)Frank Apisa Wrote: Yeah...theists "believe" there is at least one god; atheists "believe" there are none.

Two sides of one coint.

(I know, I know...the atheist fiction comes out here. "All we are doing is lacking 'belief.'")

Horseshit. You people do "believe" there are no gods...or you "believe" it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one."

People who call themselves "atheists" are as much "believers" as people who designate themselves theists.

I actually describe myself as religiously unaffiliated, but by the general consensus of atheists, I am an atheist.  I think I'm definitely one of "you people."

I've already stated quite clearly that I can't say much about gods in general, so what you say is false on that score.

But you've already asked about your definition of gods.  As I noted at the time, I think your definition includes things that are not gods and so I see no point in discussing it.  There is a theory that we might live in a simulated universe.  There's nothing about creating such a simulation which requires any godlike characteristics.  We might be able to do so at some point in the future.  We might be able to do so now.  The creators of such a simulation, if they are like us, are responsible for the creation of what we refer to as the physical universe, and by definition are therefore gods.  I'm completely agnostic about such gods, and so what you say is again contradicted.

The problem is that you're trying to create an equivalence between believing there are no gods and knowing there are no gods.  An atheist is free to believe there are no gods, and they are free to be agnostic, not knowing, whether there are no gods.  You seem to want there to be a contradiction between being an atheist and being an agnostic.  I don't think there is any conflict.

But you say that you define an atheist as someone who identifies as atheist.  That suggests to me an interesting thought experiment.  Let's say you're learning Chinese, and you know a good bit of Chinese but have yet to learn the word for atheist.  Now suppose you're talking to a person who speaks only Chinese, and you want him to tell you what the Chinese word for atheist is.  Stating it in English, what would you ask your Chinese friend in order to get him to tell you the word for atheist in Chinese?

That is not an "interesting thought experiment"...that is desperation being typed.

In any case, of course an atheist is free to "believe" there are no gods...and of course they are free to be agnostic on the question. I have never said or intimated differently. 

But if a person decides to include the word "atheist" in a descriptor he/she applies to self...that person almost certainly has a "belief" that there are no gods...or that it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one. Otherwise the person including atheist is doing so only because some dictionaries demand it be be done. Anyone doing that is an asshole.

I think that you'd have been surprised at the atheists on these boards willingness to imagine some kind of god somewhere, had you gone that route, rather than the route of calling everyone dumb. Paths not taken and all that.

(June 26, 2021 at 6:49 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I think that you'd have been surprised at the atheists on these boards willingness to imagine some kind of god somewhere, had you gone that route, rather than the route of calling everyone dumb.  Paths not taken and all that.

Read the goddam posts. I did not start anything...until several people started bullshit with me.

I asked some questions...and got the answers. Most were answers I expected. Nothing new here.