Hume, haha. Pls see this: "Today we want to look at David Hume’s “in principle” argument against miracles. Despite its influence, Hume’s argument is generally recognized by philosophers today, in the words of the philosopher of science John Earman, as an “abject failure.”[1] Earman is a Professor of History and Philosophy of Science at the University of Pittsburgh and not a Christian (not even a theist), and yet he recognizes that Hume’s argument against miracles is, as he puts it, an abject failure. What Earman means by that is that it's not just a minor mistake – this argument is demonstrably, irremediably a failure." From: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/podcasts...on-part-17

Yes, agreed, though, Brian, that numbers by themselves don't establish Truth. What would establish Truth is if it can be shown that there were Divine Miracles as the most likely explanation driving that growth. That is, that the effect of observed growth came from a Divine, not Naturalistic, Cause.

IIRC, Brian, you are a former Catholic, correct me if I am mistaken; well, the Catholic Church teaches that Prophecies and Miracles are the most fitting demonstrations of the Omnipotence and Omniscience of God, and this is logical and intuitive: by prophecies, God reveals foreknowledge. By miracles, He reveals Great Power. Thus, if there were well documented cases of either, that would then be solid evidence for a non-deistic God. And if they are associated with Christianity, and accompany the Gospel, e.g. at Crusades were Millions believe they experience Miracles and thus give their lives to Jesus Christ, that suggests that Jesus Christ did not stay dead but truly Rose from the dead.

Here is Vatican I on Faith and Reason. From: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library...uncil-1505

Quote:

---

4. Nevertheless, in order that the submission of our faith should be in accordance with reason, it was God's will that there should be linked to the internal assistance of the Holy Spirit external indications of his revelation, that is to say divine acts, and first and foremost miracles and prophecies, which clearly demonstrating as they do the omnipotence and infinite knowledge of God, are the most certain signs of revelation and are suited to the understanding of all.
5. Hence Moses and the prophets, and especially Christ our Lord Himself, worked many absolutely clear miracles and delivered prophecies; while of the apostles we read: And they went forth and preached every, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it [18]. Again it is written: We have the prophetic word made more sure; you will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place [19].

---

Your poorly written fairy tale has more holes than a sieve.

But you use "mageek waiz" and other cop outs when confronted with reality.

Here's a question for you:

Why, would the creator of all that there is, need anything from you?

(July 22, 2023 at 3:30 pm)Nishant Xavier Wrote:

(July 22, 2023 at 12:54 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Half of Africa is Christian, the other half Muslim.  If you can make a compelling argument out of that, I'd be pleasantly surprised.  Instead you seem to be simply engaged in cherry picking the hits and ignoring the misses.

Yes, Africa was predominantly polytheistic not long ago. Today, it is mostly monotheistic, from the mostly Christian South to the mostly Muslim North. As for an argument, I'm just looking at demographic trends, the same as Atheists do, when they say, Religion in the West, at least in some places, is declining. That may be true in certain countries, but not in Africa, neither in the world as a whole, which is getting more Religious, not less. See this Guardian Article: "If you think religion belongs to the past and we live in a new age of reason, you need to check out the facts: 84% of the world’s population identifies with a religious group. Members of this demographic are generally younger and produce more children than those who have no religious affiliation, so the world is getting more religious, not less – although there are significant geographical variations." https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/au...ppens-next

Your conversation would then be with those who say those things.  I think the more salient question is what is growing or declining, and that paints a very different picture.  The average Catholic today believes considerably differently from the average Catholic a hundred or a thousand years ago.  The same thing is happening within Islam in that the conservative strains such as Wahabism are being replaced by modern reinterpretations which attempt to whitewash the bad parts of Muslim belief and history and replace it with a sanitized, bowdlerized version of Islam through selective retconning.  And in the West, which doesn't include Africa, there is an explosion of the so-called nones who don't subscribe to a religion, yet are on the whole quite spiritual and believe in things that previously were the province of recognized religion.  Yes, in Africa, where the standard of living is poor, faith is growing.  Thus it has always been.  You'll notice the same trend in the southern United States, where poverty and lack of education are greatest, there belief is greatest.  Once you leave those conditions, the people change -- for example, poor people have more babies, but the more affluent they become, the fewer children they have.  Your "victory" if you want to call it that, depends on human suffering; alleviate the suffering, and the religious and spiritual beliefs change.

(July 22, 2023 at 3:30 pm)Nishant Xavier Wrote: But speaking of that demographic change in Africa, where Christianity is now greater than 50% of the Continent, follow how it happened, and you might see it couldn't have happened without Miracles accompanying the preaching of the Gospel. Some 1 MN people gave their lives to Christ at one single Reinhard Bonnke Crusade. They did that only because they experienced Miracles shortly before trusting in Christ. Miracles happen. That is reality. That's how Christianity spreads. The extraordinary effect requires an extraordinary cause. St. Thomas Aquinas and St. John Chrysostom, at an earlier time, make a similar argument, for how Christianity grew so large so quickly, starting with but 12 Poor Apostles who had nothing to bring that about except Teaching and Miracles. That they did, and Millions soon became Christian. The extra-ordinary effect of an extra-ordinary cause, in that case, the Resurrection of Christ, and the Miracles of His Apostles. In this case, the Miracles Christ still works today for those who seek Him or are open to His Truth. Africans are devoutly seeking Christ, while some in other parts of the world are not. Hence, they receive such Great Favors from His Goodness as Powerful Miracles, which is what helped 1 Million Souls come to Christ at one Single Crusade; and there have been many such. One can hardly grow from 10 MN to 700 MN in a short time through naturalistic causes; otherwise, let Atheists try the same, lol.

You mean miracles such as the Zambian preacher who had himself buried alive, predicting that like Jesus, he would miraculously rise again?  Credulous people believe many things.  That people in Africa tell tales of miracles is no great deal.  It reflects the facts of who these people are, not the truth of your beliefs.  They ask why God no longer performs miracles like he did in the bible.  The apologist's response is that the miracles served their purpose and God works in other ways now.  The more parsimonious explanation is that people were less learned, knowledgable, and educated then, making them vulnerable and gullible.

What do you think is going to happen when people in Africa are brought up to Western standards in terms of health, affluence, education, and so on?  

And for what it's worth, demographic trends worldwide favor Islam catching up to Christianity in 25 years.  I'd get out that prayer rug if I were you.


(source)


(source)

(July 22, 2023 at 3:57 pm)Nishant Xavier Wrote: Hume, haha. Pls see this: "Today we want to look at David Hume’s “in principle” argument against miracles. Despite its influence, Hume’s argument is generally recognized by philosophers today, in the words of the philosopher of science John Earman, as an “abject failure.”[1] Earman is a Professor of History and Philosophy of Science at the University of Pittsburgh and not a Christian (not even a theist), and yet he recognizes that Hume’s argument against miracles is, as he puts it, an abject failure. What Earman means by that is that it's not just a minor mistake – this argument is demonstrably, irremediably a failure." From: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/podcasts...on-part-17

Yes, agreed, though, Brian, that numbers by themselves don't establish Truth. What would establish Truth is if it can be shown that there were Divine Miracles as the most likely explanation driving that growth. That is, that the effect of observed growth came from a Divine, not Naturalistic, Cause.

IIRC, Brian, you are a former Catholic, correct me if I am mistaken; well, the Catholic Church teaches that Prophecies and Miracles are the most fitting demonstrations of the Omnipotence and Omniscience of God, and this is logical and intuitive: by prophecies, God reveals foreknowledge. By miracles, He reveals Great Power. Thus, if there were well documented cases of either, that would then be solid evidence for a non-deistic God. And if they are associated with Christianity, and accompany the Gospel, e.g. at Crusades were Millions believe they experience Miracles and thus give their lives to Jesus Christ, that suggests that Jesus Christ did not stay dead but truly Rose from the dead.

Here is Vatican I on Faith and Reason. From: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library...uncil-1505

Quote:

---

4. Nevertheless, in order that the submission of our faith should be in accordance with reason, it was God's will that there should be linked to the internal assistance of the Holy Spirit external indications of his revelation, that is to say divine acts, and first and foremost miracles and prophecies, which clearly demonstrating as they do the omnipotence and infinite knowledge of God, are the most certain signs of revelation and are suited to the understanding of all.
5. Hence Moses and the prophets, and especially Christ our Lord Himself, worked many absolutely clear miracles and delivered prophecies; while of the apostles we read: And they went forth and preached every, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it [18]. Again it is written: We have the prophetic word made more sure; you will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place [19].

---

Earman’s critique of Hume has been pretty well hammered by other people. I don’t know where Craig gets the view that Hume’s On Miracles is ‘generally regarded’ as a failure. Any self-respecting philosopher worth her salt would accept that in evaluating a purported miracle would agree with Hume that evidence and experience must outweigh wishful thinking (I exclude those philosophers with a vested interest in miracles being true).

If you’ve got actual evidence that the Church achieved its current state via miracles (as opposed to belief in miracles and hucksterism), trot it out and I’ll be happy to consider it.

I was raised in a Catholic household, was baptized and confirmed, went to Mass, took Communion, confessed, did penance, and attended Sunday school and catechism classes. But I was NEVER a Catholic. In light of this, you’ll understand that I don’t care a fig for what the Church has to say about anything, and the opinions of Charlemagne’s pet pontiff hold no weight with me.

Boru

It may shock you, but I don't really care!

Wonder if the increase has anything to do with population growth?  Nah, that makes sense...can't be that.

Africa population will be a third of all people on earth by 2100 (qz.com)

From an estimated 140 million in 1900, it had grown to a billion by 2010.

Just passing through. Will take the first and last for now, and come back to Angrboda and Brian's post subsequently.

Noone, God obviously does not need anything from me, or anyone else. He chooses however to use men and women to do His work, and sanctifies them in the process.

Arewethereyet, yes, that's true that there has been Population Growth as well. But the %ages show the complete story. Thus, 10 MN of around 140 MN, going by what you quoted, is 7%. That's what it was in 1900. 700 MN today, of 1.2 BN of Africa's Total Population, is nearly 60%. Thus, there has been a percentage growth, and not a merely numerical growth, as well. Percentage growth would not come about merely through birth rates, but through Souls accepting Christ as well.

Christ For All Nations Ministry claims 88 MN Souls came to Christ in the nearly 50 years they've been in Africa since their founding: https://cfan.org/ I know that sounds high at first glance, but the stats check out.

Xavi:0 Nay_Sayer:43

Poor Xavi

(July 22, 2023 at 5:23 pm)Nishant Xavier Wrote: Just passing through. Will take the first and last for now, and come back to Angrboda and Brian's post subsequently.

Noone, God obviously does not need anything from me, or anyone else. He chooses however to use men and women to do His work, and sanctifies them in the process.

Arewethereyet, yes, that's true that there has been Population Growth as well. But the %ages show the complete story. Thus, 10 MN of around 140 MN, going by what you quoted, is 7%. That's what it was in 1900. 700 MN today, of 1.2 BN of Africa's Total Population, is nearly 60%. Thus, there has been a percentage growth, and not a merely numerical growth, as well. Percentage growth would not come about merely through birth rates, but through Souls accepting Christ as well.

Christ For All Nations Ministry claims 88 MN Souls came to Christ in the nearly 50 years they've been in Africa since their founding: https://cfan.org/ I know that sounds high at first glance, but the stats check out.

I thought just god or the devil could claim souls.