(August 1, 2025 at 8:50 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: No, I am simply stating that the Muslim world in general is primitive. People are ignorant and even their religion is full of empty superstitions rather than true spirituality.

So, nowhere near as civilized as ritual cannibalism? I'm glad that you've found True Spirituality™. Please remember to file it next to the pixie dust and the dragon scales.

Quote:We are talking of a culture that marries 15 year old girls and has them having one child every year even when there is war and starvation.

I know that this may require subtlety and nuance, but you might want to consider the possibility that "the Muslim world" isn't some monolithic caricature. Also, this is every culture ever, up to about the last century. But hey, congrats on feeling superior to somebody.

(August 1, 2025 at 8:50 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: There was a nice interview on CNN with Christiane Amanpour with two Israeli doctors fighting against Netanyahu’s policies in Gaza. The entire populist speech of the Netanyahu government was decrypted.
To summarize: The State of Israel was born out of genocide. So educated / smart Israelis do not support the policies of Netanyahu. He is the D. Trump of Israel and with his similar minded friend in the white house, he seems to think he can do whatever he wants.
/ As someone who has had it with this war (that is lingering there since before I was born), I’M only thinking, “Why doesn’t he that it all at once and end this thing once and for all?”
 
If there is hell this must be it: Imagine this: Israel wants to kill you all. And your “resistance movement” also wants you to dies because it is a part of their strategy. Israel wants you push you out. Egypt wants to keep you in.
 
Let me be even clearer: there are some 3 million Syrians (fleeing a similar situation) in my country. Still I would support my government if it wanted to take some of those Palestinians in.
 
The other solution being the recognition of the state of Palestine (which is happening in France, Germany and England). And the removal of Israeli troops and settlements from those territories.
 
I’m ok with both solutions.
 

israel wasn't born of genocide - zionism was already old by the time Shoah was stopped. However even in it's infancy it was immoral project as it deemed Palestine to be peopleless land (which is essential colonialist take). Here is a nice quote that I saw in a book I'm currently reading:

[Paweł Mościcki, Gaza. On the Culture of Extermination, p.37-38]*

Solution that I would be ok with is stopping israel with force. Time for letting them do as they please have long passed and no country should be above international law. Jacobin have a good piece about it. To sum it up:

For decades, liberal humanitarianism argued that the international community should take military action against states engaged in extreme human rights abuses. Well, there’s no way to argue that Israel isn’t exactly such a state.


*https://imgur.com/a/b8ItQBS - link to original version of the text

(July 27, 2025 at 11:14 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: The United States of Earth.  Problem solved.

Okay, so who's going to resurrect Richard Nixon's head?

Quote: Is this Simply Going to go on Forever?

Nah. Two more weeks.

Boru

Angrboda:
 
I joined this forum in a time I started to really have it with organized religions (mine and other organized religions). I think everyone here saw the movie “Kingdom of Heaven” (Orlando Bloom 2006). Other than being a monumental movie in many other ways, the ending is very interesting. What made anyone think that God (or the Gods) need offerings form us? This reciprocity in religion is one of the things that angers me in ordinary religion the most. Even the figure of Christ dying for our sins.
 
Here you go Lord. I give you my life. In return you forgive humanity.
 
I am saying that the logic here is wrong: We give temples, cities, (or in this case) entire countries to God so when we die he puts us in wonderland.
 
My understanding is radically different. Which is why I don’t have a solution to this problem. What about Jews and Muslims both being ethnically cleansed from that land and the creation of the new Kingdom of Jerusalem. What about that?
 
Sorry for my sense of humor but, real people are getting killed there and there is still no end in sight to this conflict
 
Paleophyte:
 
You are right. But I am saying this out of concern for the Muslim world more than disdain. Being who I am I am allowed to say that there are better ways of doing things: Like embracing modernity rather than staying attached to some age old superstitions that are supposed to be the right way of doing things.
 
I believe that for other religions too. I believe in a more “normal” way of harboring religious beliefs
 
Denisovich:
 
I don’t know that much about Zionism. All I know is that being an Israeli citizen is also a very complicated issue. Just think of their army fighting on 5 fronts. If was to pick between Israeli and Ukrainian, I think I would go for Ukrainian.
We (I) also have issues with our neighbors (Kurds, unstable Arab States, Greece) but there is an understanding of peace with neighboring countries (Even Russia and/or Armenia for instance).
 
How is it possible to raise children in a country in which “everyone else” is the enemy?
 
- You can’t live like that. It’s not possible.
 
/ No one needs to bomb Israel. All of their weapons come from the US. But the US is not likely to stop sending weapons because of the powerful Jewish lobbies.
 
But still: France, Spain, the U.K. and perhaps even Germany are on the track to recognizing the statehood of Palestine. This is a good thing.
 
The point that these “Strong leaders” are missing is this: Humanity is an ongoing project. Newer generations are less tolerant to see things like famine, terror, war etc. on TV. You can’t just send the legions, burn enemy villages and bring civilization to entire countries anymore. The times are changing. I think this is going to become something like Vietnam in the 1960’s.
 
Brian Boru:
 
- No. Arabs are very merciless too. They are choosing to strategically keep the Palestinians where they are instead of opening all the borders and letting them out.
 
With this mentality we are all in for at least two centuries

(August 5, 2025 at 5:03 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: Angrboda:
 
I joined this forum in a time I started to really have it with organized religions (mine and other organized religions). I think everyone here saw the movie “Kingdom of Heaven” (Orlando Bloom 2006). Other than being a monumental movie in many other ways, the ending is very interesting. What made anyone think that God (or the Gods) need offerings form us? This reciprocity in religion is one of the things that angers me in ordinary religion the most. Even the figure of Christ dying for our sins.
 
Here you go Lord. I give you my life. In return you forgive humanity.
 
I am saying that the logic here is wrong: We give temples, cities, (or in this case) entire countries to God so when we die he puts us in wonderland.
 
My understanding is radically different. Which is why I don’t have a solution to this problem. What about Jews and Muslims both being ethnically cleansed from that land and the creation of the new Kingdom of Jerusalem. What about that?
 
Sorry for my sense of humor but, real people are getting killed there and there is still no end in sight to this conflict
 

Your expectations are shaped by your beliefs about the truth content of claims about religion and spirituality. This makes your expectations no less specious than theirs.

(August 5, 2025 at 5:03 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: What about Jews and Muslims both being ethnically cleansed from that land and the creation of the new Kingdom of Jerusalem. What about that?
 
Sorry for my sense of humor but, real people are getting killed there and there is still no end in sight to this conflict

How do we defeat the overlay of religious entitlement? That is where any potential solution lies -- not that any are realistic, I'm just making the smaller point.

(July 27, 2025 at 11:02 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: So I don’t think Israel can simply stay in Gaza killing a few dozen people every single day and make us all watch these atrocities. 

Sad to say, they can and they will. Or actually it's not "a few dozen" any more. It's closer to 100. 

Both Israel and the US have given up all pretense that this is about self-defense, or any other morally justifiable purpose. This is evil, about taking what belongs to other people, and everybody who's paying attention can see it. 

Quote: 
I am also tired of this “Promised land” idea. My only vision is that it is OK for each ethnic group on this world to have a piece of land they can call “my own”. But I don’t think that, having just said that, I have brought my self in a problem that is impossible to solve. Netanyahu like people are the ones claiming “that there is no solution” so that they can keep doing what they are doing. 

More Israelis are openly talking about "Greater Israel." This is the goal of taking over all that land that was originally promised to Abraham in Genesis 15:18. 

This is bounded on the west by the Nile, and on the East by the Euphrates. It includes all of Palestine, all of Lebanon, and parts of Jordan, Syria, and Egypt. This helps explain why Israel is bombing Lebanon and Syria with impunity, destroying whole villages which pose no threat. 

There has been some increase in awareness among Americans and others who used to be more obedient to the propaganda. Not that long ago if you said something radical like "Israeli snipers shouldn't shoot toddlers," the obedient drones would reply "HamAS! HaMAs!!@ Muslim TeRROr!!!!" Decades of propaganda have worked wonders. But these days there is a little more acknowledgment that, for example, starving a huge number of people, and then announcing where food will be distributed, and then shooting people who go to the distribution point, is perhaps not quite sporting. 

The strange thing to me is that so many Americans still justify this unqualified evil. For example, atheist extraordinaire Sam Harris, though of course he opposes any sort of biblical justification for political actions, makes an exception for Israel. 

So the answer is: it will go on as long as America says it can go on, and there is no indication that America will ever make it stop. Trump recently announced that any city or state which boycotts Israel will not receive any federal funding. 

It's another nail in the coffin: America is letting everyone know that it's the greatest cause of terror in the world. As every country turns its economy toward China, America makes itself a military economy with a third-world population attached. What Bush did in Iraq was clear enough, but now America's support of genocide shows what it's really made of.

(August 5, 2025 at 5:03 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: Denisovich:
 
I don’t know that much about Zionism. All I know is that being an Israeli citizen is also a very complicated issue. Just think of their army fighting on 5 fronts. If was to pick between Israeli and Ukrainian, I think I would go for Ukrainian.
We (I) also have issues with our neighbors (Kurds, unstable Arab States, Greece) but there is an understanding of peace with neighboring countries (Even Russia and/or Armenia for instance).
 
How is it possible to raise children in a country in which “everyone else” is the enemy?
 
- You can’t live like that. It’s not possible.

I'm quite sure that committing genocide will not make others friendly toward israel so perhaps first step to stop being surrounded by enemies should be stopping being criminal regime? Just a thought.
 

Quote:/ No one needs to bomb Israel. All of their weapons come from the US. But the US is not likely to stop sending weapons because of the powerful Jewish lobbies.
 
But still: France, Spain, the U.K. and perhaps even Germany are on the track to recognizing the statehood of Palestine. This is a good thing.
 
The point that these “Strong leaders” are missing is this: Humanity is an ongoing project. Newer generations are less tolerant to see things like famine, terror, war etc. on TV. You can’t just send the legions, burn enemy villages and bring civilization to entire countries anymore. The times are changing. I think this is going to become something like Vietnam in the 1960’s.

Why? israel ain't special. Genocide that this rogue state is doing should be stopped by force. Time for soft gestures like sanction have long passed. If milosevic forces were bombed then why netanyahu ones should be treated differently?

@Ivan Denisovich

Quote:I'm quite sure that committing genocide will not make others friendly toward israel so perhaps first step to stop being surrounded by enemies should be stopping being criminal regime? Just a thought.
 

I’m doubtful that would help. Most of the Muslim world sees Israel as an intrinsically criminal regime. Even if the Israeli government would stop it unquestionably evil behaviour, pleaded with the Arab world for forgiveness, made monetary and material compensation for all the horrid shit they’ve done since the 1940s, and turned their leaders over to The Hague to be tried for war crimes, Muslims would STILL call for Israel’s destruction.

Boru