Yeah, Jackson was a dickwad.

Absolutely, of course it goes both ways, we mythicize the lives of the indigenous people who were displaced and prefer to view them almost uniformly as hapless victims. They were no such thing. They were also human beings, capable and willing to enact terrible violence upon each other. This place wasn't paradise before our culture came here and continues to avoid becoming so afterwards. The complacency and willingess of the natives to throw each other under the bus without foresight as to what their benefactors might do when all of the other savages were "dealt" with forms a great deal of the history surrounding these events (especially so in the case of Florida btw). Of course they also have a long history of warring against each other prior to our arrival.

So, perhaps, not all good, not all bad -oftentimes horrible, often brilliant, always human?..lol

(As a small aside and factoid about Florida and it's now eradicated indigenous peoples... Going as far back as first landing conquistadors were more often greeted with open arms and gifts than resistance. Not because the natives were friendly, but because invariably the natives had a problem with some tribe just upriver, and the conquistadors seemed to them to be a good solution for this problem. Spanish parties actually leapfrogged across the peninsula eradicating one group after the next with the expressed guidance of this or that tribe who would, ultimately, fall to the axe themselves at the behest of some other tribe with more to offer the raiders. This pattern continued for centuries.....)

(July 31, 2012 at 12:31 pm)aleialoura Wrote:

(July 31, 2012 at 11:55 am)Shell B Wrote: Lots of people had slaves back then. It does not make Andrew Jackson less of a good leader. George Washington had slaves.

Cool. Did George Washington illegally bring a small army of southern white men to a commune of free black farmers, in Florida, and brutally murder 270 men, women, children, giving away the survivors to whomever claimed to have owned their relatives? Because I don't think he did.

Let's not even forget the 23 million acres of Creek nation, which he stole, without approval from the U.S. government, that he sold to all his slave owning buddies, keeping most of the money for himself, of course.

George Washington was a brilliant military leader, and a decent president. I'm sure he was very flawed in many ways, but probably not Trail of Tears flawed. Just sayin'.

If he's Jackson is anyone's hero, they're fucked up.

I'm just saying he was an excellent leader. He might have been fucked up, but he really was a badass. As for being a hero, certainly not. A very able leader and insanely good soldier, probably because he was as crazy as a redneck on cross-burning day, yes.

You'd be surprised to know how many people... men mostly, who get erections talking about how wonderful he was. I really need to get out of Tennessee.

LOL, Hero Worship in the Deep South. In their defense..they did loose a war...I mean they have to find something to be proud of rgr(...and it sure as hell aint gonna be G Washington Carver.....)?

They can worship my tits. I'm out of this bitch in 2 years.

(July 31, 2012 at 1:46 pm)Rhythm Wrote: In their defense..they did loose a war...

And they very handsomely lost the war they loosed.

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(July 31, 2012 at 1:14 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Absolutely, of course it goes both ways, we mythicize the lives of the indigenous people who were displaced and prefer to view them almost uniformly as hapless victims. They were no such thing. They were also human beings, capable and willing to enact terrible violence upon each other. This place wasn't paradise before our culture came here and continues to avoid becoming so afterwards. The complacency and willingess of the natives to throw each other under the bus without foresight as to what their benefactors might do when all of the other savages were "dealt" with forms a great deal of the history surrounding these events (especially so in the case of Florida btw). Of course they also have a long history of warring against each other prior to our arrival.

So, perhaps, not all good, not all bad -oftentimes horrible, often brilliant, always human?..lol

(As a small aside and factoid about Florida and it's now eradicated indigenous peoples... Going as far back as first landing conquistadors were more often greeted with open arms and gifts than resistance. Not because the natives were friendly, but because invariably the natives had a problem with some tribe just upriver, and the conquistadors seemed to them to be a good solution for this problem. Spanish parties actually leapfrogged across the peninsula eradicating one group after the next with the expressed guidance of this or that tribe who would, ultimately, fall to the axe themselves at the behest of some other tribe with more to offer the raiders. This pattern continued for centuries.....)

However, the fact remains that right from its days as colonies of Britain, America has adopted an explicitly exterminatory policy towards the Indians. Even Washington and Franklin wrote about the necessity and inevitability of complete eradication of the natives. This theme and sentiment was repeated time and again throughout the 19th century by people in the higest echelons of American society, including by many whom we continue to mythologize as paragons of American humanity and liberalism.

(July 31, 2012 at 12:24 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(July 31, 2012 at 12:09 pm)A Theist Wrote: The Battle of New Orleans was still significant since it thwarted British hopes of stopping America's expansion westward beyond the Mississippi River.

No, it didn't. They were going to leave, anyway.

I'm sorry sugar pie but it did. The British had thought to stop American expansion so they could control the Mississippi River and the Louisiana Territory for their commercial interests in the Gulf.

A better invitation to worship than most can muster......listen up theists, Alei is on to something....

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(July 31, 2012 at 1:54 pm)Chuck Wrote: However, the fact remains that the right from its days as colonies of Britain, America has adopted an explicitly exterminatory policy towards the Indians. Even Washington and Franklin wrote about the necessity and inevitability of complete eradication of the natives.

Absolutely right, and a similar policy was enacted by the natives of the great lakes region against their neighbors -before we had even arrived-, a conflict which only worsened when the very thing they were fighting over became much more valuable once we did arrive, hunting grounds (and by extension furs from those hunting grounds). The natives were not beyond exterminating each other intentionally, at least no more so than those europeans which arrived and took advantage of this place, it;s people, and situations. These natives were not niave savages.they had politics and policy, treachery, intrigue, and a long -long history very similar to our own.

(July 31, 2012 at 1:31 pm)aleialoura Wrote: You'd be surprised to know how many people... men mostly, who get erections talking about how wonderful he was. I really need to get out of Tennessee.

Come to the northwest, where the weather is shitty, and there are no "heroes" to worship.