(November 3, 2012 at 4:38 pm)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: Ok then, how do you know God's will by testing prayer against him?

Thanks.

We test answers against what we know of him. What is accepted, and what we can deduce from the accepted. Some say at least 2 references.

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(October 31, 2012 at 4:30 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You know his will as you test it against your knowledge of him. If it is inconsistent with accepted (by you) knowledge then it's not him.

I never said test him against himself.

I simply interpreted 'you know his will as you test it against him' to mean 'you know his will as you test his will against him'. I didn't realize that the 'it' was referring to prayer and not his will.

Anyway, I assume you know God through interpretation of the Bible. But how do you know one interpretation is more accurate than another?

(November 4, 2012 at 5:20 am)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: I simply interpreted 'you know his will as you test it against him' to mean 'you know his will as you test his will against him'. I didn't realize that the 'it' was referring to prayer and not his will.

Anyway, I assume you know God through interpretation of the Bible. But how do you know one interpretation is more accurate than another?

You didn't use my words. See above.

...

I scrutinised the biblical evidence for God long and hard. I left no stone unturned of my own issues. I was 24 and so had quite an armoury, having known very little (I now found out) about xtianity before (despite the inevitable cultural influence) . My atheistic ideas were much stronger than any religious understanding I had.

I got to a point where I trusted that information, and took the step to act on it. Having acted on it, I found it to be true to my own, now direct experience.

A caveat of xtianity is to constantly test it against other information. This I do, and I've found nothing to challenge its accuracy or validity. I can't say that there is nothing better. All I can say is that I've yet to find it.

I do find wide ranging sources that concur. The whole picture is only complete in xtianity, to the best of my knowledge.

Thanks for your answer. I can't really comment on that because I simply don't see how anything from a book is valid evidence of God. You clearly disagree on that.

And like I said I merely misinterpreted 'we know his will as we test it against himself' to mean we know his will as we test his will against himself. I didn't realize that the 'it' was referring to 'prayer' which was mentioned in a previous sentence. That is all.

@Drich

I've read your response and I have two questions:

1) Why should I believe your brand of denomination, the "Biblical Theist" denomination, over the other 30 000+? Why do you hold the right interpretation as to why healing never occurred during my trip as opposed to the next Christian?

2) I see what you were saying about "toxic faith". My question, or rather observation, is that you're (on a whim) discarding my entire church of ~1000 people as having this improper faith. Would you actually be willing to say their relationships with God are, for the most part, "toxic"?

(November 4, 2012 at 10:07 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: @Drich
1) Why should I believe your brand of denomination, the "Biblical Theist" denomination, over the other 30 000+?

1) I do not represent a denominational brand on this website. I am simply looking for biblically based answers to my (and your questions) There is absolutely no churchly denominational influence in anything I have said to you or anyone else.
2) That said do not take my word for it look it up yourself, or ask me for the book chapter and verse. Nothing I say/answer with comes from piece mealing several one liners together. I take my answer from entire chapters and whole blocks of contextual scripture. I am happy to share everything, but have been reminded many times not to preach/share/leave large blocks of text unless asked or I am to leave links.

Quote: Why do you hold the right interpretation as to why healing never occurred during my trip as opposed to the next Christian?

Take your experience, analyze the result and compare it to what the bible says, discard everything else no matter what you grew up with. Then answer your own question. You do not need me to explain it to you. Ask God for basic discernment on this matter I am sure everything that ha happened to you is leading up to this point, and He will open your eyes on this to see for yourself if you simply ask. Just do so earnestly.

Quote:2) I see what you were saying about "toxic faith". My question, or rather observation, is that you're (on a whim) discarding my entire church of ~1000 people as having this improper faith.

Actually no I have not discarded your whole church. You gave one example of a failed faith (your own) I spoke to your failed faith not the faith of everyone else in your church. If you go back I even openly accepted that God could have legitimate used your "heavy hitter/healer" in the past, but not on this trip for something as 'trivial' as answering your prayer to be used by Him. God would not or rather has not scripturally used a man to 'magically' heal in His name, if this man were not faithful.

Quote: Would you actually be willing to say their relationships with God are, for the most part, "toxic"?

I have no idea, unless they spent as much time as you have describing what and why they believe what they believe. I have talked about the reason for so many 'denominations' in the past in my own thread. http://atheistforums.org/thread-12406.html All of it still holds true.

In essence the reason we have so many denominations is because we are not all built the same. Each 'denomination' speaks to a certain personality type. You need a faith that speaks to X your old church spoke to the Zs. The Z's being those slated for the exhibition of spiritual gifts. You may have been slated for a gift like mine. Where you simply observe, record and conclude, or God may have had something more intended for you. But, because you were in a church that prized exhibitional gifts and because you did not have anyway of manifesting this sort of gift, that faith became toxic to you. So rather than addressing your brand of faith, you concluded their was no God. In part because that particular brand of faith forces people to manifest gifts that may not be slated for them to have. Leaving those people one of two options. To falsely manifest a gift, or to give up (usually on God.) In that faith their isn't a provision made other than social shunning for those who have not manifest such a gift in one way or another.

This is the problem with 99% of all of Christian religion. We assume that because 'we' are right in our specific brand of faith all others are wrong. This is simple pride. This pride allows many to fall through the cracks. For in truth NONE of us has it 'right.' What makes us acceptable in our religious efforts is atonement. For it is the same atonement that forgives us of our sins when we willfully disobey that forgives our foolishness when we are trying to worship God with all of our being.

That makes ALL Religion a double edged sword. It draws us in and protects us with it's tradition and procedures when we are young in the faith, but as we mature it can also cut us down and leave us dead in our faith. Our only hope/saving grace is that we learn early on is to worship and serve God. Not to worship and preserve our religious practices above God Himself.


Just FYI I met another healer today and He didnot even consider Himself to be one with a actual gift. A woman in the church simply did not wake up one morning, and after many tests they found that she had a baseball size tumor in her head, and that she had a massive stroke killing off much of the good brain cells.. The family was told to say their good byes and this person was asked to pray for her and the family. He simply did his part and went home. He came back the next day to be there when she was taken off of life support to find during the night she regained consciousnesses. They did more tests and could not find any evidence of a stroke and the tumor shrank to an operable size. She is doing fine now and attends the church regularly.

I say that to say that this man like the lady who healed me do not see themselves as 'healers.' They are simply being faithful to the role God has set before them. If the are to pray the pray, if they are to serve they serve if they are to fill a need by doing X they do it. If anything should miraculously happen it is not because they have a gift they can wield like a Wizard when ever they wish. They simply consider themselves to be vessels that God can use to accomplish what He wants done.

Drich Wrote:I say that to say that this man like the lady who healed me do not see themselves as 'healers.' They are simply being faithful to the role God has set before them. If the are to pray the pray, if they are to serve they serve if they are to fill a need by doing X they do it. If anything should miraculously happen it is not because they have a gift they can wield like a Wizard when ever they wish. They simply consider themselves to be vessels that God can use to accomplish what He wants done.

YES, EXACTLY! Also, faith without works is dead. This is the entire reason why my church is a missionary church that prepares teams and sends them off to countries where they have established a relationship with the people. My team couldn't have been more sincere in our reasons for going to Thailand. I'll have you know that the healing topic we're discussing in conjunction with my missions trip is but a small fragment of what we set off to do. The healing was just part of the preaching, the loving, the witnessing, the providing that we were there for.

See, if we hypothetically say God exists, then I think all that you have said previously to the bit I quoted leads up to the bit I've quoted. I never considered myself a "healer" either, just a faithful servant with the light of the world inside of me, which needed to be shared with the rest of God's unsaved people. To do that, I need to get myself over to where the people are in need, hence my decision to go on that missions trip.

(November 5, 2012 at 12:27 am)FallentoReason Wrote: YES, EXACTLY! Also, faith without works is dead. This is the entire reason why my church is a missionary church that prepares teams and sends them off to countries where they have established a relationship with the people. My team couldn't have been more sincere in our reasons for going to Thailand. I'll have you know that the healing topic we're discussing in conjunction with my missions trip is but a small fragment of what we set off to do. The healing was just part of the preaching, the loving, the witnessing, the providing that we were there for.

See, if we hypothetically say God exists, then I think all that you have said previously to the bit I quoted leads up to the bit I've quoted. I never considered myself a "healer" either, just a faithful servant with the light of the world inside of me, which needed to be shared with the rest of God's unsaved people. To do that, I need to get myself over to where the people are in need, hence my decision to go on that missions trip.

So was your mission trip a success or failure because no one got healed?

If you went to Thailand to serve God as a faith without works is dead, then a biblically grounded faith says any oppertunity taken to serve God is a sucessful way to serve. Only a toxic faith says one has to manifest a gift like the ablity to heal someone on demand, in a far away land to serve God.

If you can not honestly say your mission was a sucess just by the service you were able to provide by the gifts other than healing that you all had before you got there, then it is easy to conclude that you were not there to serve God. But to leverage/buy a spiritual gift. Something as the book of Acts points out, will not be honored by God.

(November 4, 2012 at 6:38 am)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: Thanks for your answer. I can't really comment on that because I simply don't see how anything from a book is valid evidence of God. You clearly disagree on that.

And like I said I merely misinterpreted 'we know his will as we test it against himself' to mean we know his will as we test his will against himself. I didn't realize that the 'it' was referring to 'prayer' which was mentioned in a previous sentence. That is all.

Please show me where I said that sentence you keep quoting.

I don't see the book as evidence in the way I think you demand. If it were that evidence I would expect to lay it down as sole proof and rest at that. It's information to take or leave, purposefully. It never seeks to prove God. It assumes God, because that was the cultural norm of its authors. We're it written now, the distinction would be made, because a modern audience wouldn't assume God. The book reflects the direct experience of believers. It doesn't force something foreign onto us.

(November 5, 2012 at 2:32 am)Drich Wrote:

(November 5, 2012 at 12:27 am)FallentoReason Wrote: YES, EXACTLY! Also, faith without works is dead. This is the entire reason why my church is a missionary church that prepares teams and sends them off to countries where they have established a relationship with the people. My team couldn't have been more sincere in our reasons for going to Thailand. I'll have you know that the healing topic we're discussing in conjunction with my missions trip is but a small fragment of what we set off to do. The healing was just part of the preaching, the loving, the witnessing, the providing that we were there for.

See, if we hypothetically say God exists, then I think all that you have said previously to the bit I quoted leads up to the bit I've quoted. I never considered myself a "healer" either, just a faithful servant with the light of the world inside of me, which needed to be shared with the rest of God's unsaved people. To do that, I need to get myself over to where the people are in need, hence my decision to go on that missions trip.

So was your mission trip a success or failure because no one got healed?

If you went to Thailand to serve God as a faith without works is dead, then a biblically grounded faith says any oppertunity taken to serve God is a sucessful way to serve. Only a toxic faith says one has to manifest a gift like the ablity to heal someone on demand, in a far away land to serve God.

If you can not honestly say your mission was a sucess just by the service you were able to provide by the gifts other than healing that you all had before you got there, then it is easy to conclude that you were not there to serve God. But to leverage/buy a spiritual gift. Something as the book of Acts points out, will not be honored by God.

Well, on a broader spectrum, I can say the mission was a success because we got to hand out the packages we assembled for the people we visited. That was in essence priority one. In terms of the "Christian" side of things (i.e. the witnessing etc.), I have to say not one God-related incident happened. To put this another way: we might as well have been representatives of any of these atheist charities and it wouldn't have made the slightest difference to the outcome.