Atheist Bible Study 1: Genesis

[Minimalist]

[Bucky Ball]

Guys, Genesis, the tree, the exalted ones (often translated as gods), the stars, the sun, the moon, the water, the spirit of God on the water, the Kings from the offspring of Abraham, the Twelve Princes promised in Ishmael offspring, the Set(h) by God, etc, is all about God's Authority in his chosen ones from Humans, and the first question that had to be discussed and put to face, is why not Angels, and the whole Bible is explanation of why not Angels, and why humans, and why leadership and delegation issue is vitally important and the line that all corruption happened because people named themselves with the name of God is the central thesis of the Torah and Gospels are teaching exactly what it truly meant to be that name, and Jesus expressed it as he is the morning star from the house of David.

And Aaron and his family, the talk of Lut was to emphasize on Aaron, and the wisdom of chosen offspring of Abraham, but this time, switched with the successor (brother of Moses) offspring. And the Bible doesn't make sense it breaking the promise to Aaron and his offspring after so much emphasis, it's a clear contradiction.

And there is hidden marvels I can get into in this regard, but there is a beautiful flow that humans yet don't comprehend, and some parts of the Bible are irrational and contradict it's central theme, but other parts show original revelations from God that cannot be that of humans since humans over all are yet to comprehend it and appreciate it the more enlightened they get, they realize it's way above their ability, let alone that of low life fabricators to make up!

Could you tell us what you're smoking ?

[GrandizerII]

Abram in Egypt
Genesis 12:10-20

Abram and his group move to Egypt to settle there for a while, because of a severe famine in Canaan. Now his wife Sarai was apparently a very beautiful woman ... so beautiful that the men of Egypt would kill her husband just to have her. So Abram, being the shrewd man that he is, suggests to his wife to pretend that she is his sister instead. That way, he won't be harmed by the Egyptians, and they'll treat him well.

When in Egypt, the Pharaoh hears of this beautiful woman called Sarai and takes a hold of her. He is so pleased with her that he rewards her "brother" Abram with plentiful livestock and servants. Not sure about Sarai, but Abram seemed to be having a field day there, despite being such a cuckold.

But the LORD would have nothing of this. So he inflicts the Pharaoh and his household with severe diseases. Then Pharaoh, realizing the truth, summons Abram and has a go at him for letting a king like him suffer. Then Pharaoh commands his men to send Abram away peacefully, with his wife Sarai and all their belongings.

This, to me, is the first really interesting account of Abram's life in Genesis. It actually resembles the story of Joseph combined with the story of the Exodus in many ways, which makes me think this story was used as a template for the more elaborate and later Joseph and Exodus stories. We see mention of a famine in Canaan, and the move to Egypt as a result. We also see Pharaoh's good treatment of the people of God. We then see divine inflictions thrown upon the Pharaoh and his people. We finally see the Pharaoh yield to the point of sending the enslaved away peacefully and with all the things they had acquired while in Egypt. All of this we see later in the "remake versions" of this story.

Now to briefly comment on the character of Abram in this story. This is obviously being said from a very modern perspective, but I personally think Abram was a bit of a douche for letting his wife possibly suffer like this for his own safety, and it's one of the few passages that show how lacking he was in empathy towards his wife. But at the same time, I can still somewhat understand why he felt this was the best way to go about doing things, since he suspected that the Egyptians would've killed him if they thought he was Sarai's husband.

Either way, we see the LORD teaches Pharaoh a lesson, showing him who's really God. And to the ancient Israelites, this would've been one illustration among many of how powerful and mighty God is compared to other men and gods, and thereby a reminder that only the LORD was worthy of worship.

Of course, what God did there was cruel and completely unwarranted. All he had to do was tell Pharaoh to give Sarai back to Abram without having to inflict diseases on him and his family, and the Pharaoh would've been intimidated enough to obey. That, or be a better guide to Abram and actually discourage him from putting his wife in this situation and reminding him that he's there to take care of them while in Egypt. But that's just me.

[Bucky Ball]

The premise of the myth is nonsense. If she was (said to be) his sister, she would have been available for marriage. 
Camels were not domesticated for common use, until, at the earliest 1000 BCE. (They do appear on temple and other architecture as royal symbols, before that).
The height of the migratory caravans occurred around 700-750 BCE.
One can assume that any "migrations" (such as this one) are mythological.
There is no evidence (archaeological or historical) for anyone from the period of the "patriarchs".
We know the history of pre-kingdom Israel, (the tribal confederation period), its centers of worship, its gods, and some of its leaders.
The first historical leader who is unquestioned, historically, is Deborah, the Judge.

[vulcanlogician]

Abram in Egypt
Genesis 12:10-20

Yeah, this is clearly an example of of ancient peoples imagining what a supreme ruler of the universe (or rather... world) must be like. Later, after the Jews became influenced by the Hellenes, we begin to see a different character/personality emerge in the LORD... a bit more refined and civilized... less barbaric. By the time we get to Jesus, Hellenism had completely woven itself into Jewish culture, and the NT describes a God appropriate for that age.

It's basically like Breaking Bad in reverse.

[Drich]

Abram in Egypt
Genesis 12:10-20

Abram and his group move to Egypt to settle there for a while, because of a severe famine in Canaan. Now his wife Sarai was apparently a very beautiful woman ... so beautiful that the men of Egypt would kill her husband just to have her. So Abram, being the shrewd man that he is, suggests to his wife to pretend that she is his sister instead. That way, he won't be harmed by the Egyptians, and they'll treat him well.

Actually the passage states abraham knows that the egyptians will kill him if they know sara to be his wife and take her from her family. The idea being if she is his sister they will/can bluff a crazy high dowelery/bridal cost. but the king get's involved who can afford to pay this crazy cost with whatever they seek. which lands them into trouble.

When in Egypt, the Pharaoh hears of this beautiful woman called Sarai and takes a hold of her. He is so pleased with her that he rewards her "brother" Abram with plentiful livestock and servants. Not sure about Sarai, but Abram seemed to be having a field day there, despite being such a cuckold.

again the idea was to give people the idea that she was obtainable but only to the wealthy which the king had no problems meeting.
the idea wasn't to trade but to put such a high price on her no one would pay, but appearently she was a megan fox type and the king did not care how much it cost.

But the LORD would have nothing of this. So he inflicts the Pharaoh and his household with severe diseases. Then Pharaoh, realizing the truth, summons Abram and has a go at him for letting a king like him suffer. Then Pharaoh commands his men to send Abram away peacefully, with his wife Sarai and all their belongings.

because he knew more was to come if abraham was treated badly.

This, to me, is the first really interesting account of Abram's life in Genesis. It actually resembles the story of Joseph combined with the story of the Exodus in many ways, which makes me think this story was used as a template for the more elaborate and later Joseph and Exodus stories.

the only paralell is that the jews leave with thier belongings. the exodus had the jews take the belongings of the egyptians as well as their own, but only after terrible hardships on the egyptians

We see mention of a famine in Canaan, and the move to Egypt as a result. We also see Pharaoh's good treatment of the people of God.

well... no. remember pharaoh's relationship with the israelites come only through their brother 1/2 joseph (they were born from leah while joseph was born of rachel. and after he was sold into slavery joseph came to work at the #2 guy in egypt where he was accused of trying to rape the wife of this guy and was thrown into prison, and stayed there for years till pharaoh had dreams that haunted him that only joseph could decipher, which lead to preparing egypt for a famine in egypt and every where else... This preparation make pharaoh 100x more wealthy than he was! He even expanded the kingdom as people traded their family lands for grain to eat. Then Joseph became the #2 guy. he was so trusted (and still a slave) he ran the kingdom.. So all of the kindness you attribute to the pharaoh was actually their brother joseph. The pharaoh was charging people their lands and holdings for enough to keep them alive. (his own people governor's and the like)

. We then see divine inflictions thrown upon the Pharaoh and his people. We finally see the Pharaoh yield to the point of sending the enslaved away peacefully and with all the things they had acquired while in Egypt. All of this we see later in the "remake versions" of this story.

this happens several hundred years after the joseph story.

Now to briefly comment on the character of Abram in this story. This is obviously being said from a very modern perspective, but I personally think Abram was a bit of a douche for letting his wife possibly suffer like this for his own safety, and it's one of the few passages that show how lacking he was in empathy towards his wife. But at the same time, I can still somewhat understand why he felt this was the best way to go about doing things, since he suspected that the Egyptians would've killed him if they thought he was Sarai's husband.

You are right he was a douche and the bible points that out later saying he should have trusted God to deliver him..

Either way, we see the LORD teaches Pharaoh a lesson, showing him who's really God. And to the ancient Israelites, this would've been one illustration among many of how powerful and mighty God is compared to other men and gods, and thereby a reminder that only the LORD was worthy of worship.

while getting abraham started in the goat business..

Of course, what God did there was cruel and completely unwarranted.

so the F what?!?!? being cruel to a thief or a cut throat is like being rude to a member of isis.. No one ruled in that day without putting alot of people in the ground!

All he had to do was tell Pharaoh to give Sarai back to Abram without having to inflict diseases on him and his family, and the Pharaoh would've been intimidated enough to obey. That, or be a better guide to Abram and actually discourage him from putting his wife in this situation and reminding him that he's there to take care of them while in Egypt. But that's just me.

what makes you think he didn't?

Men like that in a position of authority don't generally just roll over. that have to be shown who the boss is.

---

Glob.. it's like cut and paste/no thought commentary!

The premise of the myth is nonsense. If she was (said to be) his sister, she would have been available for marriage. 

no shite! that was the whole point. to make her avaible but at the same time so expensive no one could touch her.. However they did not count on her catching the eye of the king! He met whatever crazy price they cold come up with!!

Camels were not domesticated for common use, until, at the earliest 1000 BCE. (They do appear on temple and other architecture as royal symbols, before that).

which is consistent with the story as camels were gifts from pharoah. Ie not common use animals.

The height of the migratory caravans occurred around 700-750 BCE.

as a means of trade and travel. however it was common practice to move your tribe when resources dwindled from the beginning of time. this is all very basic hunter gather stufff.

One can assume that any "migrations" (such as this one) are mythological.

what a moron:
ever hear of 'native americans' dummy?
do you know how 'science' says they got here?
it's called a land bridge they crossed supposedly 25,000 years ago in a mass migration due to dwindling resources supposedly brough on by the ice age.

Now if people 25,000 years ago knew to follow the food out of a dying area, what makes you think this same idea was so abstract that abraham could not have heard there was food in egypt 2000 bce and simply go there to see if they could set up camp?

There is no evidence (archaeological or historical) for anyone from the period of the "patriarchs".

patriarchs is a term referring to one's ancestors dummy. here they refer to those who came before abraham.

We know the history of pre-kingdom Israel, (the tribal confederation period), its centers of worship, its gods, and some of its leaders.
The first historical leader who is unquestioned, historically, is Deborah, the Judge.

glob...
deborah comes several hundred years AFTER the exodus, if this is as far as you can go back then perhaps it would be better if you saved it for a time when she comes up.

It is like me having a discussion about pre colonial leadership in American colonies and you tell us you knew someone in obama's cabinet... Better yet it's like you did a key word search but don't know enough to exclude this name as it is not even in 1000 years of what is being discussed. but hey it was spelled right which still makes you "smart" with your peers..

[Bucky Ball]

Either way, we see the LORD teaches Pharaoh a lesson, showing him who's really God. And to the ancient Israelites, this would've been one illustration among many of how powerful and mighty God is compared to other men and gods, and thereby a reminder that only the LORD was worthy of worship.

There is not a shred of evidence that anyone in Egypt was "taught" a lesson ... anytime, anywhere.
Egypt was and remained a polytheistic culture.

There is no evidence of large numbers of Jews in Egypt, or that at and one point, they left. A large number of Jews leaving Egypt :
a. would have impacted the economic system .. and there would be some record of the event. There isn't.
b. Egypt controlled the entire Near East. It makes no sense to go from one place Egypt controlled to another place they controlled.

Israel was never a monotheistic culture. After the Exile, they slowly moved towards monotheism, as the concept of "individualism" replaced
the tribal-family structures, and their prophets insisted on the worship of (only) one god. It was a very late development.

Statues and images of Ashera, (Yahweh's consort/wife) whom they worshipped alongside Yahweh, have been found in sites such as Dan, Beth-El, and Jerusalem.

"In a 1975 excavation at Kuntillet 'Ajrud (Horvat Teman) in the Sinai Desert, a pottery ostracon was inscribed "Berakhti et’khem l’YHVH Shomron ul’Asherato" ("I have blessed you by Yahweh of Samaria and [his] Asherah"). Beneath the words are drawings of a tree and of a cow with a calf. Nearby is a drawing of a "tree of life" flanked by two ibexes. A second reference to "YHVH and [his] Asherah" was identified in an inscription on a building wall. An similar reference has been found at Khirbet el-Qom, near Hebron, where an inscription reads "Blessed be Uriyahu by Yahweh and by his Asherah; from his enemies he saved him!"
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entr...e_Feminine

We know the Hebrews were not monotheistic. They were monolateralists. They acknowledged many gods, ... the covenant was that in return for help in their battles, they would ONLY worship the (Babylonian) god of the armies (the "lord of hosts" ... a "host" is a battle formation).... Yahweh Sabaoth.

Christians are not monotheists. The Trinity is not a concept consistent with monotheism, and no Jew would acknowledge anyone having equivalence to Yahweh.
Jesus in no way asserted equivalence to the Father. He even said there were things the Father knew, that he didn't, and that he had to do what he was told by the Father .. NO WAY that is an "equal" being.











"According to the later account in 2 Chronicles, Josiah destroyed altars and images of pagan deities in cities of the tribes of Manasseh, Ephraim, "and Simeon, as far as Naphtali" (2 Chronicles 34:6–7), which were outside of his kingdom, Judah, and returned the Ark of the Covenant to the Temple."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josiah

[The Grand Nudger]

Henotheists.

[Drich]

Either way, we see the LORD teaches Pharaoh a lesson, showing him who's really God. And to the ancient Israelites, this would've been one illustration among many of how powerful and mighty God is compared to other men and gods, and thereby a reminder that only the LORD was worthy of worship.

There is not a shred of evidence that anyone in Egypt was "taught" a lesson ... anytime, anywhere.
Egypt was and remained a polytheistic culture.

There is no evidence of large numbers of Jews in Egypt, or that at and one point, they left. A large number of Jews leaving Egypt :
a. would have impacted the economic system .. and there would be some record of the event. There isn't.
b. Egypt controlled the entire Near East. It makes no sense to go from one place Egypt controlled to another place they controlled.

Israel was never a monotheistic culture. After the Exile, they slowly moved towards monotheism, as the concept of "individualism" replaced
the tribal-family structures, and their prophets insisted on the worship of (only) one god. It was a very late development.

Statues and images of Ashera, (Yahweh's consort/wife) whom they worshipped alongside Yahweh, have been found in sites such as Dan, Beth-El, and Jerusalem.

"In a 1975 excavation at Kuntillet 'Ajrud (Horvat Teman) in the Sinai Desert, a pottery ostracon was inscribed "Berakhti et’khem l’YHVH Shomron ul’Asherato" ("I have blessed you by Yahweh of Samaria and [his] Asherah"). Beneath the words are drawings of a tree and of a cow with a calf. Nearby is a drawing of a "tree of life" flanked by two ibexes. A second reference to "YHVH and [his] Asherah" was identified in an inscription on a building wall. An similar reference has been found at Khirbet el-Qom, near Hebron, where an inscription reads "Blessed be Uriyahu by Yahweh and by his Asherah; from his enemies he saved him!"
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entr...e_Feminine

We know the Hebrews were not monotheistic. They were monolateralists. They acknowledged many gods, ... the covenant was that in return for help in their battles, they would ONLY worship the (Babylonian) god of the armies (the "lord of hosts" ... a "host" is a battle formation).... Yahweh Sabaoth.

Christians are not monotheists. The Trinity is not a concept consistent with monotheism, and no Jew would acknowledge anyone having equivalence to Yahweh.
Jesus in no way asserted equivalence to the Father. He even said there were things the Father knew, that he didn't, and that he had to do what he was told by the Father .. NO WAY that is an "equal" being.











"According to the later account in 2 Chronicles, Josiah destroyed altars and images of pagan deities in cities of the tribes of Manasseh, Ephraim, "and Simeon, as far as Naphtali" (2 Chronicles 34:6–7), which were outside of his kingdom, Judah, and returned the Ark of the Covenant to the Temple."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josiah

you are about 900 years head of the discussion. nothing you have said here applies to one scrap of what was said. what's more???? Your not even smart enough to know this... but hey, you spelled everything perfectly which means you are smart, to people like you... and in the end that all that should matter to you!

[Bucky Ball]

Drich

bla bla bla

There is no evidence anywhere that Israel existed at all before about 1200 BCE. They were a tribal confederation until the first king.
There is not one shred of evidence for Abraham, (according to the best of the Israeli archeologists).
He was an entirely mythical figure. Applying dates to mythological figures, (Abraham and Moses) has no foundation in fact ... at all.
Abraham was a myth as well as Moses. There is evidence for neither. No one can actually write about their own death and burial, (Moses).  
He would have no way of "going down" to Egypt, as camels had not been domesticated yet, nor would anyone else, (ie Joseph).
Actually my comments covers the entire period of Israeli history. None of my POINTS were refuted, thus you attempt to fling your poo "around the subject",
yet never actually address any of it it. You are SO hilariously transparent.
Subtle you ain't.

You still haven't told us why you chose the *CB* (Christian Bully) approach to evangelization, over others.
Why ... if I didn't know better, I might just think you're nothing but an angry old troll who gets off by insulting people.
That can't be, could it ?
Jesus sure has done *you* a lot of good, I see.  

I think you have a play-date waiting.
Now run along outside and play.