Atheist Bible Study 1: Genesis

[GrandizerII]

I mean, it makes a lot of sense. And it explains why, in my last reading of the story of Cain, I had this perception that there was poor flow from the story of Adam and Eve to the story of Cain, almost as if the fall (as depicted in the Adam and Eve story) never happened per the story of Cain (and almost as if Adam and Eve were all of a sudden not the only first parents of the human race).

If I may ask, which of the four models used to explain the origins and composition of the Pentateuch do you find most convincing?

Or do you view it to be the result of a combination of models?

I don't mean to disappoint, but no idea which model because I've not researched enough to have a definite say. I am happy to read more scholarly stuff here in this thread, though.

Definitely not the "Mosaic" model.

[TwoKnives99]

There are 4 models and 4 sources. 
So everyone is right. 

The Documentary Hypothesis is one of 4 models, and there are 4 sources. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis

I think the Documentary Hypothesis (or the neo-documentary hypothesis) rings most true .. with the added proviso that priestly sources probably played a larger part than anyone imagined ... Genesis and Exodus can be seen as priests from the Southern Kingdom constantly slamming the priests and traditions from the Northern Kingdom, and vice-versa.

I was right!

Ah.. I really need to trust in myself more

[Minimalist]

There aren't 4 models.  There are 4 sources, each written at a different time for a different purpose and audience.  The resulting mass of contradictions and non sequiturs is a result of a piss-poor job of editing.

oh.. 4 sources, not four models, okay.

In other words I look like an idiot now

Congrats Cypher

Not at all.  Xtians love to talk about their 4 gospels.  But really, there are many more than that and they dismiss most of them for one reason or another.  On the other hand, of the 4 they swear by there is really only 1.  So-called "mark."  The next two are fanfics expanding the basic story and then there is the "john" horseshit which is a total re-write from a different point of view.

Two books I would recommend to you.  One is William Dever's "Did God Have A Wife."  The other is Robert Price's Holy Fables, Vol 1.

[The Grand Nudger]

The "prophecy" of the OT was their equivalent of a fox opinion piece, lol. If those godless suburbanites didn't stop being so damned godless, civilization was going to crumble and the foreign invaders would stream in through the borders and take all the women and jobs.

-and they did, but they left flyover country relatively unscathed..because there simply wasn't anything worth taking. Thus, flyover countries views became very well represented after the fact as the default survivor.

[Bucky Ball]

The "prophecy" of the OT was their equivalent of a fox opinion piece, lol.  If those godless suburbanites didn't stop being so damned godless, civilization was going to crumble and the foreign invaders would stream in through the borders and take all the women and jobs.

-and they did, but they left flyover country relatively unscathed..because there simply wasn't anything worth taking.  Thus, flyover countries views became very well represented after the fact as the default survivor.

That's actually very true ... The ancient role of a prophet in Hebrew culture was to interpret the words or will of their god to the people OF THEIR OWN DAY. NOT to predict the future. (That's Hollywood's idea of the role of a prophet). 

So you often hear fundies talking about "prophesy", and how various prophesies were a 'foretelling", or prediction of the future, and indeed they count them up as "proof" that Jebus or whatever HAS to be true, as the "prophecy" came true. 

In fact Leviticus forbade fortune telling and divination, ("Let no one be found among you who practices divination, reads omens etc etc" .... so we know it was an abomination to even think in these terms for many/most centuries in Hebrew culture. With the rise of Apocalypticism, around the turn of the millennium, this changed somewhat, and is evidenced in many Christian writings, including the gospels, as they adopted the notions absent in ancient Israel, but coming into popular view with the Essenes. In terms of Hebrew culture, and the "telling of or prediction of" the future, was unknown, and forbidden, and not at ALL a view of the major prophets themselves. However in the the new view, certain "hidden meanings" or "pesherim" began to be looked for, in the practice of Midrash. The name for this is called "pesher", (or seeking a "hidden meaning"), which was not even known to the original speaker/writer, but only "revealed" later
to certain believers. Originally, the (plural) "pesherim" were only fully revealed to the Son of Righteousness, (the leader of the Essenes), and the idea was first found and fully understood after scholars read the Dead Sea scrolls, and was a sub category of "Midrash", (or study of the texts). 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou...15650.html

Thus we see that "prophesy" as fortune telling as began to be practiced in Judaism around the First Century, (and picked up by Christians and the gospel writers), really was a very late invention and never a classical part of Hebrew scripture, or understanding, either interpretation, or intention, and certainly was not the function of the ancient office of "prophet", in Hebrew culture, who was to be a "mouthpiece" to the people of their own day, and not Madame Zelda with her crystal ball.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/r...html#proof

[GrandizerII]

The LORD's Covenant With Abram
Genesis 15

"Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward."

These were God's words of comfort and reassurance uttered to Abram in a vision. A shield, and a very great reward. This was what God was like to the ancient Israelites ... a protector of the weak and vulnerable, and a desirable end in its own right.

But an understandably unsatisfied Abram, still childless at this point, did not yet fully trust in the LORD to bear him the promised offspring, and expressed concern that his household servant would instead be his heir. Here, Abram dares to point his finger at God and reminds him of his situation.

"You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir."

Nevertheless, the LORD reassures him again that he will eventually have a son in his own flesh and blood. And uncountable offspring. Taking him outside, the LORD utters the following words to Abram:

"Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them."

That's how many descendants Abram would have. Or least that's the number God promised Abram in this book.

After this, Abram believed God, "and he credited it to him as righteousness". This would later be quoted in at least two different places in the New Testament and interpreted differently in each case, but it's clear that Abram's trust in the LORD (despite the persistent hurdle of childlessness) was counted as a merit on the part of Abram.

Abram still had questions for God, though. And he wanted to be sure that his descendants would really inherit the land of Canaan (where Abram was living at the time). So he asked for a sign from God, and God instructed him to bring "a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon". Which means some bloody sacrifices were about to occur.

Abram then cuts the heifer, the goat, and the ram into two halves each, arranging "the halves opposite each other". The birds, dead that they were, were left intact.

Then some "birds of prey" arrive at the scene to have a bite of the dead animal bodies, but Abram would have nothing of that, and manages to shoo them all away. Totally unnecessary detail if you ask me, but whatever.

At sunset, Abram falls into deep sleep, with thick dreary darkness hovering over him, and more words from God uttered to him:

"Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure."

Notice here the kind of character God is. God does not act "impulsively" so to speak, but waits for the right time or right conditions to do his thing. Once the sin of the Amorites was at its peak, God would ensure that the descendants of Abram would take over the land of Canaan. Until then, they would have to endure a few decades of suffering and oppression by "a country not their own" (i.e., the country of Egypt). After that would be escape, and then the takeover of Canaan. And these will be fun stories to talk about later on, in Genesis and the rest of the Torah/Pentateuch (along with Joshua).

Once the darkness had fully set, "a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces". It's not clear in this passage if Abram was awake to see what was happening, or whether he was seeing this in his sleep, but that was the divine sign that Abram had asked for. And thus the LORD's covenant with Abram was made, promising Abram the whole land of Canaan:

"To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates—the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites."

And that is all for today. Not an exciting passage, but still a milestone event of some sort (plot-wise).

[Bucky Ball]

My god took me up on Mulholland Drive, and told me that my real estate covenant (contract) would include everything west of the 405, and south of the 101, (except not Encino ... who would want Encino ?)

[Crossless2.0]

My god took me up on Mulholland Drive, and told me that my real estate covenant (contract) would include everything west of the 405, and south of the 101, (except not Encino ... who would want Encino ?)

Be careful when you and your people invade Venice Beach. I hear the natives are adept at using their thongs as slings.

[Minimalist]

These guys are great.

[unfogged]

These guys are great.

another take on it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goWunDc0MQI