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RE: Why was the crucifixion necessary ?
August 16, 2012 at 8:59 pm
(August 16, 2012 at 5:50 am)pgrimes15 Wrote: Incidently I was talking to the cousin I mentioned in the thread last night. Turns out that she did not realise that stars were suns or that our sun was a star. "What did you think they were ?!!" I asked in astonishment.
She thought they were all planets.
It just goes to show what we might consider common knowledge, is in fact not.
I don't know where you live, but when I was in school (quite a long time ago), the minimum amount of science required of high school students was appalling. If I recall correctly, there was only one year of "science lite" required in grades 9 through 12.
While I fully appreciate that many students will not be interested in nor would find necessarily useful studying specific disciplines (e.g. physics, chemistry, biology), however, that any educational system could fail to teach such basics as the nature of what we see every day/night is disappointing.
Not knocking your cousin, BTW, but rather the educational system that apparently failed her.
/derail
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RE: Why was the crucifixion necessary ?
August 16, 2012 at 9:19 pm
Quote:It just goes to show what we might consider common knowledge, is in fact not.
Not at surprising ;it was a shock to learn at university that 'common knowledge' of some disciplines is up to a century behind academia.
I have known for a very long time,that even among the most devout, few Christians have actually ever read the entire bible,which has been called "the least read best seller" . (in reality, I suspect that honour goes to "Mein Kampf")
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RE: Why was the crucifixion necessary ?
August 17, 2012 at 7:06 am
(August 16, 2012 at 8:59 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: (August 16, 2012 at 5:50 am)pgrimes15 Wrote: Incidently I was talking to the cousin I mentioned in the thread last night. Turns out that she did not realise that stars were suns or that our sun was a star. "What did you think they were ?!!" I asked in astonishment.
She thought they were all planets.
It just goes to show what we might consider common knowledge, is in fact not.
I don't know where you live, but when I was in school (quite a long time ago), the minimum amount of science required of high school students was appalling. If I recall correctly, there was only one year of "science lite" required in grades 9 through 12.
While I fully appreciate that many students will not be interested in nor would find necessarily useful studying specific disciplines (e.g. physics, chemistry, biology), however, that any educational system could fail to teach such basics as the nature of what we see every day/night is disappointing.
Not knocking your cousin, BTW, but rather the educational system that apparently failed her.
/derail
I am in the UK which was why her ignorance was quite a surprise. It made me think I was perhaps being a bit naive in my assumptions about the state of general knowledge in this country. Her response is one I would expect from someone in the heart of the US bible belt.
Regards
Grimesy
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Edward Gibbon
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RE: Why was the crucifixion necessary ?
August 17, 2012 at 7:15 am
OK...not reading the previous posts I would say that the "crucifixion" had to be implemented into the "Story" to appease pagan knowledge of the eightfold year... vis a vis death and resurrection of the land.
my 2c
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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RE: Why was the crucifixion necessary ?
August 17, 2012 at 7:25 am
(August 16, 2012 at 8:20 pm)Drich Wrote: Quote:I'm not trying to be trite or facetious, but it just does not make sense to me that a human sacrifice was necessary, in and of itself, to the exclusion of all other courses of action (like flying off in a fiery chariot).
More broadly speaking, when is a human sacrifice ever needed for anything.
Don't know what you mean.
In order for the message that God/Jesus had suffered through being (sort of) separated to be conveyed to humanity was it necessary to physical torture and execute the human body that God/Jesus was occupying. If it was necessary, and no other course of action would have had the required result, why ? What was it about this execution that did what nothing else - for instance flying off in a fiery chariot to the sound of celestial trumpets - could do ?
I am sorry if my meaning wasn't clear before. I cannot think of a way to phrase this question in a better way than "Why was the crucifixion necessary ?".
Regards
Grimesy
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Edward Gibbon
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RE: Why was the crucifixion necessary ?
August 18, 2012 at 9:13 am
Christ was executed the worst possiable way known to those people at that time, and was scourged on top of it. All of that so we may have an idea of the cost of salvation/attonement. Even so some still do not understand, and ask why the cost of attonement is spelled out physically.
If all of this was done and people are confused about what was displayed here at the cross, then how much less meaning would there be for a sound and light show? Again all of this was done so the those who seek attonement/salvation know of the cost to provide it. So we can phathom the pain and seperation Christ endured on a physical level.
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RE: Why was the crucifixion necessary ?
August 18, 2012 at 9:45 am
(This post was last modified: August 18, 2012 at 9:45 am by Ace Otana.)
(August 15, 2012 at 7:15 am)pgrimes15 Wrote: I asked why there had to be a crucifixion.
A better question - what did Jesus sacrifice?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan
Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.
Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.
You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
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RE: Why was the crucifixion necessary ?
August 18, 2012 at 9:51 am
(August 16, 2012 at 8:20 pm)Drich Wrote: (August 15, 2012 at 2:32 pm)Gambit Wrote: How would we know the significance of the cost, given that all we have witnessed is a man dieing and a bunch of texts that are barely substantial to begin with? If you mention the holy ghost I'm going to strangle you with your own corporal mortification device.
you ask why did Jesus Have to die for our sins.
(August 16, 2012 at 5:50 am)pgrimes15 Wrote: Are you saying that it was a demonstration, or bit of theatre to make a point. Couldn't god have done something else like turn the sun off for a bit or make the sky turn orange. what does that have to do with the pain, loss, despare, the brutal ripping and seperation God the Son endured Spiritually and physically?
Quote:I'm not trying to be trite or facetious, but it just does not make sense to me that a human sacrifice was necessary, in and of itself, to the exclusion of all other courses of action (like flying off in a fiery chariot).
More broadly speaking, when is a human sacrifice ever needed for anything.
Don't know what you mean.
(August 18, 2012 at 9:13 am)Drich Wrote: Christ was executed the worst possiable way known to those people at that time, and was scourged on top of it. All of that so we may have an idea of the cost of salvation/attonement. Even so some still do not understand, and ask why the cost of attonement is spelled out physically.
If all of this was done and people are confused about what was displayed here at the cross, then how much less meaning would there be for a sound and light show? Again all of this was done so the those who seek attonement/salvation know of the cost to provide it. So we can phathom the pain and seperation Christ endured on a physical level.
Yes I get what your saying. Jesus was tortured and executed so that we may have "an idea of the cost of salvation/attonement."
This does not address what my question is.
I'll try and put it in a different way.
If the worst possible way of execution at the time was being "hung-drawn and quartered" would that be the method used to execute Jesus.
Was the "worst possible way known" chosen to make the most lasting impression on the witnesses.?
If the aim was just to make an impression, couldn't something else spectacular have been done (i.e. turn the sun off for an hour - that way everyone in the world would get the message).
Was it the execution that was the essential element - regardless of the method - or was it the method that was the important thing? To both these questions I ask why?
Regards
Grimesy
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Edward Gibbon
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RE: Why was the crucifixion necessary ?
August 18, 2012 at 4:35 pm
(This post was last modified: August 18, 2012 at 4:37 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
No shit? Where I'm from (and when I was in school) science was 1/6th of the total pie from grades 6-8 and 1/4 9-12 (and 1-6 wasn't a complete wash on that count). That was the minimum. I (and about 800 other kids in a small area) did the whole Magnet, CAST, and MEGSSS route, so science was about 90% from grade 6 on.
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RE: Why was the crucifixion necessary ?
August 18, 2012 at 5:14 pm
(August 18, 2012 at 9:51 am)pgrimes15 Wrote: Was it the execution that was the essential element - regardless of the method I believe so. Any execution would have worked--the point is that Jesus had to be sentenced and die for a crime he did not commit. He had to be judged and killed, not just expire after a long and healthy life. His charge for execution was being "King of the Jews", or blasphemy, and he never blasphemed. He was innocent. Crucifixion has the added element of torture to impress on us, as well as potential metaphors to help us understand the meaning of what Jesus did. It also shows Christ's love--one half of the reason Jesus died is to redeem us, the other half is so we might realize love and put it into practice in our own lives.
"By his wounds we are healed." Isaiah 53:5
"Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin." 1 Peter 4:1
Being wrongfully condemned tends to invoke stronger emotions than an unfortunate accident. Why do you think that is?
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