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RE: The Most Explicit Verses on the Godship of Jesus
November 6, 2012 at 12:05 pm
Given that "Isaiah" was speaking to King Ahaz - a monarch who was facing some serious political problems at the time....the Assyrians were coming.
Jews - you remember them, right? It is their religion that you have stolen for your jesus shit, think that the righteous king "Hezekiah" son of Ahaz, is the ruler spoken of. That makes a bit more sense than the rather silly xtian notion.
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RE: The Most Explicit Verses on the Godship of Jesus
November 6, 2012 at 12:07 pm
It's a little like taking the mythology of Star Wars - which happened a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, remember - and turning selected bits of it into prophecies for Star Trek.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: The Most Explicit Verses on the Godship of Jesus
November 6, 2012 at 12:18 pm
Or discussing the timeline of Zelda Games 
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RE: The Most Explicit Verses on the Godship of Jesus
November 6, 2012 at 12:23 pm
Preferably in the context of Mario or Tetris or something. The one parasitically hijacking the other.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: The Most Explicit Verses on the Godship of Jesus
November 6, 2012 at 6:44 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2012 at 4:44 pm by Rayaan.)
(November 6, 2012 at 9:28 am)John V Wrote: Whoa, hold on there cowboy. At this point I haven't argued anything. I didn't mean it that way. Sorry for not being clear enough.
Where I said this:
"If you look at some of the other verses (in the same Gospel), their context implies a different meaning of John 10:30 from what you're arguing."
you can replace it with:
"If you look at some of the other verses (in the same Gospel), their context implies a different meaning of John 10:30 from what you seem to convey."
Minor change of words, but I meant to say the same thing.
(November 6, 2012 at 9:28 am)John V Wrote: You posed your question as an innformation request, not a challenge. It was a question, but a challenge, too.
(November 6, 2012 at 9:28 am)John V Wrote: If you're arguing that the Bible doesn't portray Jesus as divine, you should have said so. I didn't say that, yes, but there's a little hint of that at the end of my OP when I said "I didn't find anything like that" (i.e. that Jesus is God) in the Bible itself.
(November 6, 2012 at 9:28 am)John V Wrote: In that case I would have started with OT prophecies of the messiah, such as:
Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Well, those are probably just proper names that were given to Jesus, not his personal names. They don't necessarily mean that he was God himself.
For example, in Mark 10:17-18, it says that a man came to Jesus and asked him " Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." So, if Jesus rejected such a small personal praise ("good") being attributed to himself, then it's contradictory to think that he would accept all these high-praising names such as "Mighty God," "Everlasting Father," "Prince of Peace," "Immanuel," and so on as his direct, personal attributes.
Another name of Jesus was "Immanuel" (meaning "God is with us"):
Isaiah 7:14:
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
That verse says that Mary will have a son (in the biological sense) and "Immanuel" will be his name. The fact that they called Jesus "Immanuel" doesn't necessarily mean that he was God, because many others may have had that name, but are not God actually. Immanuel was just one of the many titular names of Jesus, not his personal name.
It's possible that the name "Immanuel" is to be understood in light of Acts 10:38 which says, “You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him." Therefore, if God was with Jesus per that verse, then, through Jesus, God was with his followers as well. Hence the name "Immanuel," or "God is with us."
Drich, I'll look into the verses you mentioned and then I'll tell you what I think about them. Thanks for your post.
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RE: The Most Explicit Verses on the Godship of Jesus
November 7, 2012 at 1:52 pm
Rayaan Wrote:Yeah, but "I and my Father are one" does not necessarily mean that they are one in substance.
But, when he says "follow me," that doesn't necessarily mean that he is saying that he is God.
Well, those are probably just proper names that were given to Jesus, not his personal names. They don't necessarily mean that he was God himself.
The fact that they called Jesus "Immanuel" doesn't necessarily mean that he was God First, what would necessarily mean that Jesus is God?
Second, to say that these do not necessarily mean that Jesus is God implies that they could mean Jesus is God.
Third, you're making ad hoc arguments against each passage brought up. Even if there isn't a single smoking gun verse (I'm not conceding that - I'm waiting for your response to the first point before considering more passages), one can quite resonably consider the totality of the evidence in reaching a conclusion.
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RE: The Most Explicit Verses on the Godship of Jesus
November 7, 2012 at 4:06 pm
(November 7, 2012 at 1:52 pm)John V Wrote: First, what would necessarily mean that Jesus is God? When a verse doesn't have any other interpretations except that Jesus is God, or that Christians are supposed to worship him.
(November 7, 2012 at 1:52 pm)John V Wrote: Second, to say that these do not necessarily mean that Jesus is God implies that they could mean Jesus is God. Yes, they could mean Jesus is God (Scripture-wise).
(November 7, 2012 at 1:52 pm)John V Wrote: Third, you're making ad hoc arguments against each passage brought up. Even if there isn't a single smoking gun verse (I'm not conceding that - I'm waiting for your response to the first point before considering more passages), one can quite resonably consider the totality of the evidence in reaching a conclusion. Even the totality of the evidence in reaching that conclusion - i.e. that Jesus is God, according to the Bible itself - is not demonstrable, in my opinion.
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RE: The Most Explicit Verses on the Godship of Jesus
November 7, 2012 at 4:40 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2012 at 4:41 pm by John V.)
(November 7, 2012 at 4:06 pm)Rayaan Wrote: When a verse doesn't have any other interpretations except that Jesus is God, or that Christians are supposed to worship him. Yes, I understand what necessarily means, I was looking for examples. Anyway:
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Colossians 2
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
Rev 5
13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
I don;t see how else to read these passages.
Quote:Even the totality of the evidence in reaching that conclusion - i.e. that Jesus is God, according to the Bible itself - is not demonstrable, in my opinion.
Yes, I gathered that. There are verses that can be read to indicate that Jesus isn't God. In the end, the conclusion is to some extent opinion.
Note that if you conclude he wasn't god, the next question is: what was he?
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RE: The Most Explicit Verses on the Godship of Jesus
November 7, 2012 at 5:03 pm
(November 7, 2012 at 4:40 pm)John V Wrote: Note that if you conclude he wasn't god, the next question is: what was he? Pretender you're either a jew or a muslim and I think you can answer that, in light of the OT, only.
Pretend you're an atheist and you can extrapolate a bit on the view from jews and muslims.
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RE: The Most Explicit Verses on the Godship of Jesus
November 7, 2012 at 5:22 pm
I love watching Christians defend this position. I think modern Christianity has a terrible interpretation of the bible and they really have to stretch a few verses to try to make Jesus into a God-like figure. You know what Jesus would of said if he was god "I am god!" Why beat around the bush and make people do guess work to come up with some convoluted interpretation?
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