Can the forum's christians see the demons in other people?

[Darkstar]

So, either he is deliberately being a thug, or these people really are totally evil.

How is it being a thug to give people life?

Life? I mean that either he knows someone is good, but sends them to hell for not accepting Jesus, or every person who doesn't accept Jesus is already evil.

It seems odd to employ a literary device in a supposedly literal event.

That would be odd, which is why I assumed you were using the more general meaning of symbolic. I guess I shouldn't have given you the benefit of the doubt!

Metaphor
I probably should have used "symbolic" to begin with. It's still unusual, though. Couldn't he just have said flat out that he deemed women inferior?

The devil and his new sidekick defeat god's chosen and take over the entire world...why?

Good question, and part of the reason that I think God has deals with Satan (and possibly other angels) that we're not privy too.

A pretty sick deal to let your arch-enemy take over the world and force everyone to worship him under threat of death. Speaking of 'deal', what could god possibly get out of it? He's omnipotent!

Worship me or die...sound familiar?

No...feel free to explain it if you like.

Well, there is Exodus 22:20 “Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed", but that could technically be overridden if we say that no sacrifices are required. Let's look at it this way, the first commandment is to not have any gods before Yahweh. Breaking the "don't work on the sabbath" resulted in death. It would be reasonable to conclude that the first commandment is the most important (as being of another religion, one might not feel the need to follow any of the commandments), so...I think there is a clear conclusion. The inquisitors and crusaders figured it out, did you?

All of that misery, when he could have done this in the first place? He "must" release Satan, knowing what will happen? Does this make any sense to you?

It makes sense if God had made deals with Satan that we're not privy to. It's interesting that you're finding some of the very passages that lead me to that position, yet don't make the connection yourself.

God made a deal with the devil...?

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[Brakeman]

Ok, say we two otherwise identical people: John A. and John B.

John A. was an awful, mean, sadistic killer who rejected jesus.
John B. was a otherwise sweet man who could not think clearly because he was under the influence of a horrible demon and was unlucky enough to not have jesus or any other holy man around to drive out the demon, so he died without jesus in his heart.

God, being omniscient, knows whether John B would have accepted salvation in the absence of the demon, and can dismiss the demon based on that knowledge, or just save the man in the end despite the lack of an overt confession of faith.

Thats a pretty good idea, you ought to write that in the bible..

[John V]

Thats a pretty good idea, you ought to write that in the bible..

It's already there:

Romans 8
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son...

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Life? I mean that either he knows someone is good, but sends them to hell for not accepting Jesus, or every person who doesn't accept Jesus is already evil.

Yes, that's total depravity, a common though not universally accepted doctrine.

I probably should have used "symbolic" to begin with. It's still unusual, though. Couldn't he just have said flat out that he deemed women inferior?

That's not the symbolism he was going for.

A pretty sick deal to let your arch-enemy take over the world and force everyone to worship him under threat of death. Speaking of 'deal', what could god possibly get out of it? He's omnipotent!

He doesn't force everyone. You noted yourself that it says deceived, and there are faithful with Jesus.

Well, there is Exodus 22:20 “Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed", but that could technically be overridden if we say that no sacrifices are required. Let's look at it this way, the first commandment is to not have any gods before Yahweh...

As creator he's worthy of that position. Satan didn't create us or the world. We owe him nothing. It's not at all a good analogy.

God made a deal with the devil...?

It seems that way. Remember, you consider fairness, but only from the human side. What if Satan said "If you don't hold me back, I can do X, Y and Z." Now, God being omniscient might no that Satan can't do those things, butfrom a sense of fairness to Satan and/or other angels, might decide to give him a shot.

[Brakeman]

Thats a pretty good idea, you ought to write that in the bible..

It's already there:

Romans 8
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son...

In context that reads:

23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because[g] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[h] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Someone that does not know god/christ is not one who has the "firstfruits of the Spirit"

This is not talking about those that do not worship god. It does not support your argument.

[Darkstar]

Life? I mean that either he knows someone is good, but sends them to hell for not accepting Jesus, or every person who doesn't accept Jesus is already evil.

Yes, that's total depravity, a common though not universally accepted doctrine.

So I'm pure evil, then? Or will he let me acept Jesus when/if he ever gives reliable evidence of his existence?

I probably should have used "symbolic" to begin with. It's still unusual, though. Couldn't he just have said flat out that he deemed women inferior?

That's not the symbolism he was going for.

And you conspicuously fail to say what he was going for. Like any literary interpretation, you won't know what the author intended the meaning to be unless the go on record and say it officially. Whether we take this as god or an ancient person, we still won't get an answer.

A pretty sick deal to let your arch-enemy take over the world and force everyone to worship him under threat of death. Speaking of 'deal', what could god possibly get out of it? He's omnipotent!

He doesn't force everyone. You noted yourself that it says deceived, and there are faithful with Jesus.

I recall certain theists saying that god won't reveal himself because we would worship out of self-preservation and not genuinely.

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Revelation 13:15-16
The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads

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(bolding mine)
The faithful die. Or do we consider this genuine worship?

Well, there is Exodus 22:20 “Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed", but that could technically be overridden if we say that no sacrifices are required. Let's look at it this way, the first commandment is to not have any gods before Yahweh...

As creator he's worthy of that position. Satan didn't create us or the world. We owe him nothing. It's not at all a good analogy.

I think it would take too long to discuss this point in depth here...

God made a deal with the devil...?

It seems that way. Remember, you consider fairness, but only from the human side. What if Satan said "If you don't hold me back, I can do X, Y and Z." Now, God being omniscient might no that Satan can't do those things, butfrom a sense of fairness to Satan and/or other angels, might decide to give him a shot.

...what? Are you saying that god wanted to be fair to Satan, so he let him take over the world to make up for not letting him do what he wanted earlier?

[John V]

So I'm pure evil, then?

Yep.

Or will he let me acept Jesus when/if he ever gives reliable evidence of his existence?

You've made it clear that you wouldn't accept Jesus even if you believed in his existence.

And you conspicuously fail to say what he was going for. Like any literary interpretation, you won't know what the author intended the meaning to be unless the go on record and say it officially. Whether we take this as god or an ancient person, we still won't get an answer.

He was going for equality, not inferiority. Haven't you read it?

I recall certain theists saying that god won't reveal himself because we would worship out of self-preservation and not genuinely.

I was referring to Satan, not god, and again, other nameless theists can say whatever they want.

Revelation 13:15-16
The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads

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(bolding mine)
The faithful die. Or do we consider this genuine worship?

First, you shifted to a different part of Revelation. Second, yes, sometimes the faithful are called to die. God didn't spare his own son, you know.

...what? Are you saying that god wanted to be fair to Satan, so he let him take over the world to make up for not letting him do what he wanted earlier?

I didn't say anything about "not letting him do what he wanted earlier." I'm suggesting this as a possibility. I've already noted that we don't have enough information to know for sure.

You should also consider Satan's temptation of Christ. It's interesting that he offers Jesus the world. If it weren't Satan's to give, the obvious answer would be "that's not yours to give," but Jesus does not dispute Satan's right to offer it.

[Darkstar]

And you conspicuously fail to say what he was going for. Like any literary interpretation, you won't know what the author intended the meaning to be unless the go on record and say it officially. Whether we take this as god or an ancient person, we still won't get an answer.

He was going for equality, not inferiority. Haven't you read it?

I'm not even going to bother displaying the numerous passages that suggest women are inferior. I did find this, however:

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Genesis 2:20-24
But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

23 The man said,


“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”

24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

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I recall certain theists saying that god won't reveal himself because we would worship out of self-preservation and not genuinely.

I was referring to Satan, not god, and again, other nameless theists can say whatever they want.

Theists on this forum (Drich and Godschild, maybe?). But, okay.

First, you shifted to a different part of Revelation. Second, yes, sometimes the faithful are called to die. God didn't spare his own son, you know.

His son was raised in three days. And, I did not move away from what was previously quoted. I quoted that passage in full (and another verse or two) originally.

I didn't say anything about "not letting him do what he wanted earlier." I'm suggesting this as a possibility. I've already noted that we don't have enough information to know for sure.

You should also consider Satan's temptation of Christ. It's interesting that he offers Jesus the world. If it weren't Satan's to give, the obvious answer would be "that's not yours to give," but Jesus does not dispute Satan's right to offer it.

I actually never thought about that, but you bring up a good point. As for not having enough information, I guess the difference here is that I do not think there is much more information to be had because the bible is fiction, whereas you say it is fact and that not everything was recorded (despite it being divinely revealed).

[John V]

I'm not even going to bother displaying the numerous passages that suggest women are inferior. I did find this, however:

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Genesis 2:20-24
But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

23 The man said,


“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”

24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

This is the passage I was referring to. "One flesh" certainly indicates equality.

His son was raised in three days.

The Bible has those who die for the faith being raised.

And, I did not move away from what was previously quoted. I quoted that passage in full (and another verse or two) originally.

The previous portion of this part of the discussion regarded the time after the thousand year reign of Christ when Satan was released from prison. You then shifted to the tribulation, before Satan was imprisoned.

I actually never thought about that, but you bring up a good point. As for not having enough information, I guess the difference here is that I do not think there is much more information to be had because the bible is fiction, whereas you say it is fact and that not everything was recorded (despite it being divinely revealed).

The Bible says straight out that it is not a complete record, and that some amount of faith is required to accept it.

[Darkstar]

This is the passage I was referring to. "One flesh" certainly indicates equality.

If that is the case, then why are there passages like the ones where women are to to keep quiet and to be obedient to their husbands? Also, I do not know why this certainly means equality. Couldn't women still have been seen as the inferior half, who needed a man to complete them?

The Bible has those who die for the faith being raised.

And, I did not move away from what was previously quoted. I quoted that passage in full (and another verse or two) originally.

The previous portion of this part of the discussion regarded the time after the thousand year reign of Christ when Satan was released from prison. You then shifted to the tribulation, before Satan was imprisoned.

Okay, I see what you mean. Speaking of those thousand years, they passed between the time the faithful died and were raised. 3 days < 1000+ years

The Bible says straight out that it is not a complete record, and that some amount of faith is required to accept it.

Where does it say that? (Though that would make sense) I think the point of contention between us would be how much faith it is we're talking about. You seem to think a lot less is required than I do. Although, even if we assume that god did make a deal with the devil, why would he do it? What could Satan possibly offer an omnipotent god (other than someone to demonize to make himself look good)?

[ThomM]

Theists, can you see the demons when they possess people?


If they cannot see the demon in their god - why would they look elsewhere?