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Universe from Nothing?
November 6, 2013 at 9:37 pm
The Universe that we can measure and observe is one ruled by laws and order. The very smallest elements which we can study have ordered forms, and follow laws which allow us to predict many, though not all behaviors.
Order itself, law itself cannot exist on its own; it requires something of a higher order to give it. A legal universe requires God for its origin.
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RE: Universe from Nothing?
November 6, 2013 at 9:39 pm
Who says the universe came from nothing?
But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin.
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RE: Universe from Nothing?
November 6, 2013 at 9:40 pm
And you know this how?
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Universe from Nothing?
November 6, 2013 at 9:42 pm
(This post was last modified: November 6, 2013 at 9:43 pm by Darkstar.)
(November 6, 2013 at 9:37 pm)Jesus is Lord Wrote: The Universe that we can measure and observe is one ruled by laws and order. The very smallest elements which we can study have ordered forms, and follow laws which allow us to predict many, though not all behaviors. Okay.
(November 6, 2013 at 9:37 pm)Jesus is Lord Wrote: Order itself, law itself cannot exist on its own; it requires something of a higher order to give it. How do you know this?
(November 6, 2013 at 9:37 pm)Jesus is Lord Wrote: A legal universe requires God for its origin. IF premise one were true, why would this follow?
IF the conclusion were true, which god would it be, and how would we know?
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
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RE: Universe from Nothing?
November 6, 2013 at 9:44 pm
(November 6, 2013 at 9:37 pm)Jesus is Lord Wrote: The Universe that we can measure and observe is one ruled by laws and order. The very smallest elements which we can study have ordered forms, and follow laws which allow us to predict many, though not all behaviors.
Saying the universe is 'ruled' 'laws' is unjustifiably anthropomorphic. When scientists say that, they just mean that a given set of things behave in a predictable way in certain circumstances. And the idea that the universe is ruled by law and yet we can't predict all of it (some quantum events) is a contradiction in your post.
Quote:Order itself, law itself cannot exist on its own; it requires something of a higher order to give it. A legal universe requires God for its origin.
Okay, I'll play your game. What gives order to God? If nothing, then how can God act at all, much less with intention?
You trying to have it both ways: 1
You being rational: 0
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RE: Universe from Nothing?
November 6, 2013 at 9:48 pm
Good grief, not this bullshit again.
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RE: Universe from Nothing?
November 6, 2013 at 9:55 pm
(November 6, 2013 at 9:37 pm)Jesus is Lord Wrote: A legal universe requires God for its origin. Well, OK then. THIS was the evidence I have been waiting for. A LEGAL universe. I'm convinced.
But just to be clear- if I had just a SMIDGEN of doubt about its legality, I could sue, right?
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RE: Universe from Nothing?
November 6, 2013 at 9:55 pm
@Jesus is Lord
Just a piece of friendly advice, since your new to the forum it might be a good idea to have a quick search for the various arguments you might raise. The chances are quite high that they've been used before and countered. It might help you reformulate and strengthen your own arguments.
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RE: Universe from Nothing?
November 6, 2013 at 10:04 pm
(November 6, 2013 at 9:37 pm)Jesus is Lord Wrote: The Universe that we can measure and observe is one ruled by laws and order. The very smallest elements which we can study have ordered forms, and follow laws which allow us to predict many, though not all behaviors.
Order itself, law itself cannot exist on its own; it requires something of a higher order to give it. A legal universe requires God for its origin.
So, first of all, hello, welcome aboard, nice to have you and all. Perhaps you should consider making an introductions thread, since those go down well here.
Second of all, have you perhaps looked at the universe lately? The small portion of it that we can see is lethally cold, filled with radiation and debris that doesn't conform to any laws, and is often on fire, exploding, or exploding with radioactive fire. That is, those parts of it that aren't enormous, light-eating rents in the fabric of reality, or huge chunks of rock that can't support life, or whole galaxies on collision courses with each other. And that's me being generous, by leaving aside all the quantum weirdness that seems to subvert your cherished laws just as much as it adheres to them.
What part of this seems ordered, to you?
And even accepting your premise, why would that not just be a consequence of our ability to recognize patterns? What makes you think those patterns can't exist on their own? Why would a god that much more complex than those patterns not need a creator, when the patters do, by sheer dint of being complex?
It's not enough to just assert these things, newbie: justify them. Demonstrate them. Give us something real to sink our teeth into.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
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RE: Universe from Nothing?
November 6, 2013 at 11:09 pm
I suspect another jesus freak shit and runner.
Go Blow Jesus Out Your Ass, boy.
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