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RE: Was it necessary to create anything?
March 25, 2015 at 6:54 pm
(This post was last modified: March 25, 2015 at 6:55 pm by Alex K.)
[Apologist]
(March 25, 2015 at 6:29 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: I see you are getting into the spirit of things, becoming more nonsensical and divorced from reality. Good job! I resemble that remark
Quote:But back to the point: If it is in the mind of God, then you should have no problems with the idea that the universe has always existed.
God can think our universe finite in time, or infinite, for time is not something God is bound by, but is an aspect of His thought if He chooses.
Quote: Hell, I am an atheist, and I have no conceptual problems with the idea that the universe has always existed. What is the problem with it, for a believer in a perfect God? How does the eternity of some part of the mind of God constitute a problem for a believer?
Most certainly no problem. It is only a problem if one naively assumes that God is in our universe and bound to its notions of time.
Quote:Indeed, this seems all for the believer's benefit, that we are not independent real things, but just thoughts in the mind of God, that have always been, and always will be. What are you, some sort of atheist?
Why how would you come to such an impertinent conclusion. We are surely not independent from God, but no less real for it, for our reality is in the mind of God.
[/Apologist]
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Was it necessary to create anything?
March 25, 2015 at 7:03 pm
(This post was last modified: March 25, 2015 at 7:05 pm by JuliaL.)
(March 25, 2015 at 5:50 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: A perfect being would have no need of anything, as it would be sufficient in itself. Creating something implies the desire to create, and a desire implies that the thing in question lacks something that it wants. Otherwise, it would not create anything. Lacking something that it wants shows imperfection.
So, a perfect being would never create a universe, as it would be sufficient in itself.
You are presuming the creation event was an intentional act.
Great Green Arkleseizure
Quote:Their legend has it that the universe was sneezed out of the nose of the Great Green Arkleseizure, and they thus "live in perpetual fear of the time they call 'The Coming of the Great White Handkerchief.'"
So how, exactly, does God know that She's NOT a brain in a vat? 
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RE: Was it necessary to create anything?
March 25, 2015 at 7:06 pm
(March 25, 2015 at 6:54 pm)Alex K Wrote: [Apologist]
(March 25, 2015 at 6:29 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: I see you are getting into the spirit of things, becoming more nonsensical and divorced from reality. Good job! I resemble that remark
Quote:But back to the point: If it is in the mind of God, then you should have no problems with the idea that the universe has always existed.
God can think our universe finite in time, or infinite, for time is not something God is bound by, but is an aspect of His thought if He chooses.
No. He would never choose anything. To choose is to change. And if one is perfect, change cannot be for the better. If one is perfect, one is unchanging.
I am tempted to quote Parmenides here, but I will let you search for him if you are interested. (Or, in your case in particular, I somehow have the idea that you [though not necessarily the apologist you are pretending to be] might know more about him than the average person, but don't let that compliment go to your head.)
(March 25, 2015 at 6:54 pm)Alex K Wrote: Quote: Hell, I am an atheist, and I have no conceptual problems with the idea that the universe has always existed. What is the problem with it, for a believer in a perfect God? How does the eternity of some part of the mind of God constitute a problem for a believer?
Most certainly no problem. It is only a problem if one naively assumes that God is in our universe and bound to its notions of time.
Quote:Indeed, this seems all for the believer's benefit, that we are not independent real things, but just thoughts in the mind of God, that have always been, and always will be. What are you, some sort of atheist?
Why how would you come to such an impertinent conclusion. We are surely not independent from God, but no less real for it, for our reality is in the mind of God.
[/Apologist]
You focussed on the wrong word. We are not INDEPENDENT real things. And God, not being restricted by time, has us as His thoughts eternally, not just at some specific time. Really, you are sounding more and more like a closet atheist. Get away from me, you heathen!
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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RE: Was it necessary to create anything?
March 25, 2015 at 7:08 pm
Quote:You are presuming the creation event was an intentional act.
Are we speaking of Abrahamic faiths here? If so God must've been high when he 'unintentionally' done everything described in Genesis 1 and 2 
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RE: Was it necessary to create anything?
March 25, 2015 at 7:16 pm
Quote: So, what does a deity gain from creating life (Humans)?
Deities are figments of assholes' overactive imaginations. Every culture has a creation myth which explains how they got wherever the fuck they were.
If you study some of these creation myths you will find that the shit in the bible is about par for the course.
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RE: Was it necessary to create anything?
March 25, 2015 at 7:17 pm
(This post was last modified: March 25, 2015 at 7:18 pm by Alex K.)
[Apologist]
(March 25, 2015 at 7:06 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: You focussed on the wrong word. We are not INDEPENDENT real things. I'll just skip over the insults and address the substance of your comment. Yes, we are not independent from God. How could we possibly independent from an all powerful God.
Quote:And God, not being restricted by time, has us as His thoughts eternally, not just at some specific time. Really, you are sounding more and more like a closet atheist. Get away from me, you heathen!
What do you mean by God has us in His thoughts eternally? You still assume that God is a creature subject to our time.
(March 25, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Smaug Wrote: Are we speaking of Abrahamic faiths here? If so God must've been high when he 'unintentionally' done everything described in Genesis 1 and 2
It's an allegory.
[/Apologist]
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Was it necessary to create anything?
March 25, 2015 at 7:23 pm
(This post was last modified: March 25, 2015 at 7:25 pm by JuliaL.)
(March 25, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Smaug Wrote: Quote:You are presuming the creation event was an intentional act.
Are we speaking of Abrahamic faiths here? If so God must've been high when he 'unintentionally' done everything described in Genesis 1 and 2
It was an accident.
No, really.
God was just minding his own business chillin' on Ararat when some uppity Egyptian came up and started pestering him about some bureaucratic rules & regulations thing.
It was a reflex- tablets are a really complex reflex action by a supremely perfect being- just ask anyone. Like a knee jerk. So he jerked out some commandment tablets....twice.
Oh yea, and told them to kill all the Cananites.
Happens all the time if you're perfect.
(March 25, 2015 at 7:16 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Every culture has a creation myth which explains how they got wherever the fuck they were.
And why they are intended by the universe at large and the God(s) specifically to be in charge of everything and justified in taking whatever they feel like.
So how, exactly, does God know that She's NOT a brain in a vat?
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RE: Was it necessary to create anything?
March 25, 2015 at 7:37 pm
(March 25, 2015 at 5:14 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: Was it necessary that Humans were created? Things would be so much less complicated for a deity if there was no universe or life to manage and scriptures to write/inspire, right? So, what does a deity gain from creating life (Humans)? Based on human history to date, he's gotten a shitload of porn to watch.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Was it necessary to create anything?
March 26, 2015 at 5:51 am
(This post was last modified: March 26, 2015 at 5:51 am by robvalue.)
It's a very good point, an argument which highlights the extreme absurdity of it all.
Taking the bible as an example, he just starts pulling stuff out his ass with no explanation as to why, even though he is apparently ghost writing it. Or should that be Holy Ghost writing it?
It makes no sense that an all powerful being would need to do anything. From reading his story, the only motivations appear to be company and worship. But not company as an equal, he makes that pretty clear when he thinks men might be achieving that. So he just wants to make people to tell him how great he is. But he knows how great he is, and knows everything. Where is this insecurity coming from and why doesn't he magic it away?
Of course, once you turn it round that it's just man projecting himself it all makes perfect sense.
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RE: Was it necessary to create anything?
March 26, 2015 at 8:02 am
There is a difference between need and desire.
God desires ALL to come to repentance and come to Him, but all do not come to repentance.
So the desire of God for them is not met.
In the end God wins, but even He does not get everything He wants.
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