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RE: Was it necessary to create anything?
March 26, 2015 at 2:18 pm
(This post was last modified: March 26, 2015 at 2:24 pm by Smaug.)
Quote:Smaug, if you keep that complex stuff up, you may end up where you currently do not want to go.
Been there, done that.
Speaking seriously, I don't completely reject the idea that the Universe may have been created (by chance, during an experiment or in an infinite variety of other scenarios) because the question itself could not be answered in the most general sence (i.e. "Does the Universe have a creator?"). People who like to discuss such issues often rush to give out answers (mostly due to their ignorance) and forget that before trying to find an answer to a question it is necessary to deduce if it is principally possible to answer the question or not. In this case trying to find an answer in the most general case has no sence since the question could not be answered (for now).
However, more particular formulations of this question can be answered. And the answer is negative. Abrahamic religions fall in this category (among others). I.e. - no Yahweh & CO. Apologetics are usless here because there are only two basic scenarios of apologetic reasoning: the reasoning is proven outright wrong or it leads so far from the dogma that it basically discredits the religion itself in process (in this case it also eventually gets stuck in fallacies but on a higher level). Deism is somewhat on the fence due to being too vague to define and discuss. What some Christians fail to understand is that a "potential Creator" that is implied by the more general formulations of the Creator Question has nothing to do with Yahweh/Jesus or almost any other god or goddess created by humans. The answer may very well be "42", you know.
Some theists do not understand why we atheists pay so much attention to religion. The answer is quite obvious. We do so because there are a lot of believers around and it's necessary to understand and their dogma to analyze their actions. Religion is not only a provider of personal philosophical concepts but also a very powerful instrument of control and has to be understood with full clarity, including it's philosophical basis.
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RE: Was it necessary to create anything?
March 26, 2015 at 2:33 pm
(March 26, 2015 at 2:17 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: The idea that a perfect being would create people is ludicrous. Oh, I dunno. If god was real I figure he'd have created a redhead with big boobs with nipples that could dial a rotary phone... long distance, even. There would still be a part of the story featuring her "talking" to a "snake," no doubt.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Was it necessary to create anything?
March 26, 2015 at 4:50 pm
Wow, never expected to this topic to get to many replies. But yes, a perfect being should have no need to create anything. It's hard to imagine humans, as imperfect as we are, were created by a perfect being. And personally, I don't want to have a relationship with anybody who condemns good people to hell. I want to have relationships with beings who treat me as an equal.
Hm...I wonder what William Lane-Craig would do in this situation? Or Hamza Tzortsis - William Lane-Craig's bearded alter-ego? After all, they use the same arguments stock arguments as each other (unless the argument is specific to their favourite religious text).
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RE: Was it necessary to create anything?
March 26, 2015 at 4:52 pm
The truth isn't that this god exists, the truth is that humans want to feel self important. If these current God/s of Abraham had not been invented by humans others would have. These exist because of mundane human marketing.
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RE: Was it necessary to create anything?
April 2, 2015 at 4:53 pm
Just seen this quote from the KJV of the bible, the book of Genesis. I don't know if anyone has ever touched upon this but:
There was Adam, and Eve came from Adam. Eve gave birth to Cain and Abel. Cain killed Abel in Genesis, so that means there were only Adam, Eve and Cain, plus God left on the planet, before Enoch was born and not including the animals of course. Now, here is where the problem lies, God states:
Quote:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
Who is "everyone", and who is "whosoever", wherever Cain goes, when in reality, only Adam, Eve and Cain existed?
Note: I am slowly going throught the bible to gather other inaccuracies.
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RE: Was it necessary to create anything?
April 2, 2015 at 4:58 pm
Lol yes! It makes no sense at all. Everyone who needs telling is in the room already and there's not many. It seems to highlight that there were indeed other people (like when people go and "get a wife" from somewhere).
This is one of the problems with mix and match grabbing of other mythologies, endless fucking around with the text and not even proper editing to make it consistent. How anyone takes any of this shit seriously is laughable to me.
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RE: Was it necessary to create anything?
April 2, 2015 at 5:09 pm
(April 2, 2015 at 4:58 pm)robvalue Wrote: Lol yes! It makes no sense at all. Everyone who needs telling is in the room already and there's not many. It seems to highlight that there were indeed other people (like when people go and "get a wife" from somewhere).
This is one of the problems with mix and match grabbing of other mythologies, endless fucking around with the text and not even proper editing to make it consistent. How anyone takes any of this shit seriously is laughable to me.
This is my final post for tonight, but I will say this, the bible is probably the easiest book to read, especially Genesis. Either we have believers who are are just skim reading and taking it as 'gospel', or, there are some illiterate people around. Either way, from now on, I am going to concentrate on the bible and try to take it apart piece by piece and put something together that lists the inconsistencies. Have a great evening rob.
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RE: Was it necessary to create anything?
April 2, 2015 at 5:28 pm
(April 2, 2015 at 4:53 pm)RobertE Wrote: Just seen this quote from the KJV of the bible, the book of Genesis. I don't know if anyone has ever touched upon this but:
There was Adam, and Eve came from Adam. Eve gave birth to Cain and Abel. Cain killed Abel in Genesis, so that means there were only Adam, Eve and Cain, plus God left on the planet, before Enoch was born and not including the animals of course. Now, here is where the problem lies, God states:
Quote:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
Who is "everyone", and who is "whosoever", wherever Cain goes, His brothers, sisters, nephews, nieces, etc.
Quote:when in reality, only Adam, Eve and Cain existed?
Only Adam, Eve, and Cain had been mentioned.
Quote:Note: I am slowly going throught the bible to gather other inaccuracies.
Pay more attention as you go. For instance, in this case, before getting to Cain and Abel you read this:
Gen 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it."
So, although brothers and sisters aren't mentioned, it's reasonable to conclude that they existed.
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RE: Was it necessary to create anything?
April 2, 2015 at 11:01 pm
(This post was last modified: April 2, 2015 at 11:02 pm by RobertE.)
(April 2, 2015 at 5:28 pm)alpha male Wrote: (April 2, 2015 at 4:53 pm)RobertE Wrote: Just seen this quote from the KJV of the bible, the book of Genesis. I don't know if anyone has ever touched upon this but:
There was Adam, and Eve came from Adam. Eve gave birth to Cain and Abel. Cain killed Abel in Genesis, so that means there were only Adam, Eve and Cain, plus God left on the planet, before Enoch was born and not including the animals of course. Now, here is where the problem lies, God states:
Who is "everyone", and who is "whosoever", wherever Cain goes, His brothers, sisters, nephews, nieces, etc.
Quote:when in reality, only Adam, Eve and Cain existed?
Only Adam, Eve, and Cain had been mentioned.
Quote:Note: I am slowly going throught the bible to gather other inaccuracies.
Pay more attention as you go. For instance, in this case, before getting to Cain and Abel you read this:
Gen 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it."
So, although brothers and sisters aren't mentioned, it's reasonable to conclude that they existed.
Ok, I see where you are coming from. Now, why did God think it was important not to mention to Cain and Abel that they had brothers and sisters? At the start of mankind, and also in Church, we were told that Adam and Eve were the first people on earth, then along came Cain and Abel as their children, with Enoch coming later. Cain murders Abel, and so we are left with three, yet according to you, God or the ancient scribes decided to leave out details that Adam had brothers and sisters, which would nullify the fact that he was the first man on earth.
Gen 1:26 to 1:28
Quote:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 2:7 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Who is "Our"? If God is only one, who is God referring to?
God created man in "his", own image. Why is he referred to a singular form?
There are so many inaccuracies in the story it is incredible. Either Adam and Eve were created, or, he created other people but they were not significant in either way. Secondly, wouldn't Adam and Eve be considered as "miracle births", since no fertilisation ever took place.
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RE: Was it necessary to create anything?
April 3, 2015 at 12:03 am
(This post was last modified: April 3, 2015 at 12:06 am by robvalue.)
Thanks RobertE 
If I had to guess, I'd say the majority of christians have never sat down and actually read the bible as a story, start to finish. I think most of them have looked at snippets, almost all of which are the popular ones recommended to sound the best by their priests or whatever. So in their mind, there is a consistent narrative to some degree and they don't think about all the gaping plot holes.
I reckon if every christian in the world sat down today and read that bad boy right through, there would be a lot of frowning, wincing and a slew of awkward questions for these "priests". And at least a few new atheists after they're done processing the shite they have read.
Sounds like a great idea doing your analysis
The other problem we have with Adam and Eve (as if we need more) is all the incest, as we know this is a huge problem when closely related people breed. If we were down to that few people, we would never have got where we are. And there has to have been at the very least a bit of sex with sisters or mothers. I don't know how much christians have thought about that. Who else are Adam's sons gonna get unleafy with?
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