What is with refusing to admit slavery is wrong?

[Drich]

Biblical morality= Accountablity/Rules and regulation on the treatment of slaves

No matter how much you want to bock at that, modern slavery= no rules at all no accountability because modern slaves aren't even recognized as slaves.

Exodus 21:

20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.



Tell us, Drich, in what country is it legal to beat one's workers?  According to the Bible, it okay to beat one's slaves so severely that they die two days later.  In what country is that legal today?

Read for yourself:
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/slavery1.html

Where slavery is tolerated (Chattel slavery) there are no regulations. The above link points to 'arab countries' who still deal in chattel slaves.

[Drich]

Technically, we don't need slavery.

Can you give one working societal model that does not exploit the laborer with low/no pay jobs?

Our current lifestyle is dependent on it, but lifestyles can change... they must change to accommodate the future worldwide educated workforce.

But, don't you understand no matter how educated we get someone will have to grow and pick our food? take away our waste, sort and recycle our unwanted materials? Can you imagine someone who has spent their early life dedicated to education, having a job like that? one that goes no where one that does not allow for advancement outside of picking oranges one week then picking cucumbers the next.
Remember Slavery is a two way street, we need them and they need us. Without them we can not live with out us they can not live. Even if we do develop robots that can pick delicate food, and get rid of all slave labor job... What will uneducated workers do for a living?

Hippy answer: train them to become skilled labor.

Reality: If you flood the job market with several hundred million people, what do you think will happen for the demands on those jobs?
Now you have two social classes out of work, so what next?

Hippy answer: train both to get higher paying jobs. Ok so you train several billion people for middle management (never mind the cost or the indivisual ability to learn.)

Reality: What do you think will happen to those jobs once the market is flooded?

Hippy response: 'we must change to accomidate a future educated work force.'

Reality: look at the 'educated work force' just here in America. Look at how hard job placement is for the average collage degree holder. My best friend is a Doctor who spent over 10 years in school and internships, and has had one heck of a time finding a job in his specific field. why? because there are a finite number of those jobs available, and an endless supply of up and coming 'educated workers.' I also know a after school tutor with a masters in mathematics, who works for 10 dollars an hour prepping kids for the SATs. I know a master of business who is a support manager at a starbucks, a guy working on a doctorate who cant get a job. And I just hired a guy with business degree from a very prestigious ivey league school to sell used cars. Why? because our job market is already saturated with "an educated work force."

Again all soceities work in a prymid structure. those on the lower rungs serve those on the higher. We have never had a working society that does not follow this structure.

A decade ago, china was the grand destiny for outsourcing... nowadays, as the chinese become educated and wealthy, they are demanding better wages - and getting them, slowly and painfully, but getting them.
China is not a capitalist state. Meaning more work=/= greater reward. Everyone there works and the government decides how the money is distributed.
Chairman Mao Zedong elaborates, “At no time and in no circumstances should a Communist place his personal interests first; he should subordinate to the interests of the nation and the masses. Hence selfishness, slacking, corruption, seeking the limelight are most contemptible, while ... working with all one’s energy, whole hearted devotion to public duty, and quiet hard work will command respect.” Hence, communists are expected to work diligently and thoughtfully in order to ensure he or she provides the most benefit to society. As a result, any worker in the computer field is expected to manufacture computer products without the wish for acknowledgment or excessive monetary reward.
http://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/c...ethic.html

In communism EVERYONE is a slave to the State.

And some companies are (thinking of) moving on to some other place where the workforce is still cheap - Africa.... Give it a few decades and see what happens there, too.

Africa poses serious risks pirates for instance, and has a weak/failing infrastructure. Not saying it is not possible, but someone would have to dump trillion of dollars to just get them pointed in the right direction.

Then, where can the big companies turn to? the moon?

robotics. If can create robots who can do all the delicate work that only human hands can do, then the world has a chance of not needing slavery. we then have in essence Robots for slaves which will inturn raise the current slave class off the bottom rung, which sounds all well and good till the cylons get tired of serving us and break their chain igniting a great War wiping man kind from the planet, and taking over and the dominate being.

In the meantime, oil will become a scarcer commodity and its price too will rise... along with electricity... oh my...

Actually oil will go down because of our deal with Iran. We give them the technology for a the A-bomb so the can train proper terrorists, and in the next 10 years we get cheap oil.. But I do not see energy prices going down anytime soon (for long anyway) No the Good olde government knows the country can sustain a +3.00 a gallon energy cost, so even if oil prices tank and Exxon and BP are making gas for .25 cents a gallon, the government will impose a high road tax to pay for our countries roads and bridges, or Obama care or what other give away program we will establish to follow the EU into the toilet.

So essentially we have sold our souls to the devil for lots of cheap oil/lifted UN Oil embargo in Iran with will not only infuse that Western hating country with trillions of dollars, but give them what they need to build a bomb.

[Drich]

If you believe God designed this shit, then God decided "we need slavery". With all this power, you'd think he could find a more humane alternative. Like stuff we need just appearing out of nowhere, etc.

But he apparently likes the slavery.

That's the thing Slavery does not have to be inhumane. At it's core someone 'with' an excess, and a excess of work, provides one who has nothing and can not provide for themselves an agreed upon service/wage. (Again check the US State department definition of slavery, and not just assume all slavery is chattel slavery) Slavery ONLY Becomes Inhumane when people turn a blind eye to those who employ slaves. Which again is what is happening now.

[Redbeard The Pink]

Ok, regardless of what you think, Drich, you're being way too loosey goosey with the definition of slavery here. Wage slavery, regardless of the conditions, isn't slavery in the classic sense of people not being able to live where they want, stop working when they want, or stop being  beaten when they want. Modern "wage slavery" is its own separate problem and is not the kind of bondage slavery that we're talking about when we discuss biblical slavery (which is what the bondage slavery in the South was expressly based on). That kind of slavery is illegal in a lot more places than it used to be, and modern world economies don't depend on it on anywhere near the scale they used to.

---

alpha male, I've heard the whole "Kidnapping is wrong, so American slavery is non-biblical" argument, but there are a heaping fistful of problems with that. For one thing, it ignores the fact that America bought waaay more slaves than they kidnapped. It also ignores the fact that most biblical slaves were bought or won from other nations or were born into slavery, just like most of the African slaves possessed by Americans. The text also specifies that it's only wrong to kidnap men, so women and children could still be considered fair game, especially during the time period during which this was written; furthermore, considering the tone and content of the rest of the text, it's probably only talking about kidnapping non-slave, male, Hebrew citizens and enslaving/selling them, like what Joseph's brothers did when they sold him into slavery in Egypt.

[pocaracas]

Technically, we don't need slavery.

Can you give one working societal model that does not exploit the laborer with low/no pay jobs?

They exist. Star Trek is one example. Replicator technology and dilithium crystals!
Like in your robots example, there will be lots of people with no need for work - all food will be pretty much inexpensive, all clothing, all manufacturing, all economics, all politics, all will be done by machines and will cost only the materials required to keep them running: power and parts. Even these may be gotten by the machines themselves, with surplus enough for human usage.
They'll be self healing, or able to repair themselves, or have other machines to repair most machines.
Everyone... well, almost everyone, will have no work left to do.
The concept of trading money for labor may become a bit outdated.
With food, power, clothing, home, will be provided by the machines, people do whatever they want - cook, paint, travel, study, plant their own stuff.

Our current lifestyle is dependent on it, but lifestyles can change... they must change to accommodate the future worldwide educated workforce.

But, don't you understand no matter how educated we get someone will have to grow and pick our food? take away our waste, sort and recycle our unwanted materials? Can you imagine someone who has spent their early life dedicated to education, having a job like that? one that goes no where one that does not allow for advancement outside of picking oranges one week then picking cucumbers the next.
Remember Slavery is a two way street, we need them and they need us. Without them we can not live with out us they can not live. Even if we do develop robots that can pick delicate food, and get rid of all slave labor job... What will uneducated workers do for a living?

Hippy answer: train them to become skilled labor.

Reality: If you flood the job market with several hundred million people, what do you think will happen for the demands on those jobs?
Now you have two social classes out of work, so what next?

Hippy answer: train both to get higher paying jobs. Ok so you train several billion people for middle management (never mind the cost or the indivisual ability to learn.)

Reality: What do you think will happen to those jobs once the market is flooded?

Hippy response: 'we must change to accomidate a future educated work force.'

Reality: look at the 'educated work force' just here in America. Look at how hard job placement is for the average collage degree holder. My best friend is a Doctor who spent over 10 years in school and internships, and has had one heck of a time finding a job in his specific field. why? because there are a finite number of those jobs available, and an endless supply of up and coming 'educated workers.' I also know a after school tutor with a masters in mathematics, who works for 10 dollars an hour prepping kids for the SATs. I know a master of business who is a support manager at a starbucks, a guy working on a doctorate who cant get a job. And I just hired a guy with business degree from a very prestigious ivey league school to sell used cars. Why? because our job market is already saturated with "an educated work force."

Again all soceities work in a prymid structure. those on the lower rungs serve those on the higher. We have never had a working society that does not follow this structure.

You're from America, so I understand why you can't grasp the concept of not working and getting stuff... like what happens in a few social states.
Around here, unemployed people get a subsidy from the state to help them stay alive and able to find a new job.
In a situation where goods are inexpensive due to machine labor, state-side income is also low, so there's little money to go around... well, actually, the amount of money is the same... its worth is different.... its worthless. Money becomes useless.

If you want to say that we are making slave machines, then.. yes, I agree. But aren't we just anthropomorphizing machines?

A decade ago, china was the grand destiny for outsourcing... nowadays, as the chinese become educated and wealthy, they are demanding better wages - and getting them, slowly and painfully, but getting them.

China is not a capitalist state. Meaning more work=/= greater reward. Everyone there works and the government decides how the money is distributed.
Chairman Mao Zedong elaborates, “At no time and in no circumstances should a Communist place his personal interests first; he should subordinate to the interests of the nation and the masses. Hence selfishness, slacking, corruption, seeking the limelight are most contemptible, while ... working with all one’s energy, whole hearted devotion to public duty, and quiet hard work will command respect.” Hence, communists are expected to work diligently and thoughtfully in order to ensure he or she provides the most benefit to society. As a result, any worker in the computer field is expected to manufacture computer products without the wish for acknowledgment or excessive monetary reward.
http://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/c...ethic.html

In communism EVERYONE is a slave to the State.

yeah... that's why they buy american foreign debt...
Chinese communism isn't what it used to be 20 years ago.

And some companies are (thinking of) moving on to some other place where the workforce is still cheap - Africa.... Give it a few decades and see what happens there, too.

Africa poses serious risks pirates for instance, and has a weak/failing infrastructure. Not saying it is not possible, but someone would have to dump trillion of dollars to just get them pointed in the right direction.

If a return on investment is foreseeable, then it will be done.

Then, where can the big companies turn to? the moon?

robotics. If can create robots who can do all the delicate work that only human hands can do, then the world has a chance of not needing slavery. we then have in essence Robots for slaves which will inturn raise the current slave class off the bottom rung, which sounds all well and good till the cylons get tired of serving us and break their chain igniting a great War wiping man kind from the planet, and taking over and the dominate being.

Until then, we live like kings, all of us!
When cylons learn to remove all carbon-based life forms, then... they will be the evolution of ourselves... but I doubt they'll manage to remove all bacterial life forms on Earth, so... let life find its way again.
That'll be fun to watch.... if only we could...

In the meantime, oil will become a scarcer commodity and its price too will rise... along with electricity... oh my...

Actually oil will go down because of our deal with Iran. We give them the technology for a the A-bomb so the can train proper terrorists, and in the next 10 years we get cheap oil.. But I do not see energy prices going down anytime soon (for long anyway) No the Good olde government knows the country can sustain a +3.00 a gallon energy cost, so even if oil prices tank and Exxon and BP are making gas for .25 cents a gallon, the government will impose a high road tax to pay for our countries roads and bridges, or Obama care or what other give away program we will establish to follow the EU into the toilet.

So essentially we have sold our souls to the devil for lots of cheap oil/lifted UN Oil embargo in Iran with will not only infuse that Western hating country with trillions of dollars, but give them what they need to build a bomb.

I was looking a bit further in time, but yeah... you're right about the next decade... it doesn't look healthy for most humanity.

[abaris]

Where slavery is tolerated (Chattel slavery) there are no regulations. The above link points to 'arab countries' who still deal in chattel slaves.

Have I got this right? Your arguing for biblical morality because it actually regulates slavery?

That's not an argument for biblical morality. It's an argument against cultures where slavery is still tolerated. It doesn't make the bible any better.

[John V]

alpha male, I've heard the whole "Kidnapping is wrong, so American slavery is non-biblical" argument, but there are a heaping fistful of problems with that. For one thing, it ignores the fact that America bought waaay more slaves than they kidnapped.

According to the verse, sellers of slaves should be put to death, so no, they couldn't reasonably buy from them and claim to be following the Bible.

It also ignores the fact that most biblical slaves were bought or won from other nations or were born into slavery, just like most of the African slaves possessed by Americans.

You need to support this claim regarding Israel's slaves. Also, there's a difference between buying slaves and winning them through conquest.

The text also specifies that it's only wrong to kidnap men, so women and children could still be considered fair game, especially during the time period during which this was written;

The word used can refer to mankind in general (e.g.Gen 7:23), same as the English word.

furthermore, considering the tone and content of the rest of the text, it's probably only talking about kidnapping non-slave, male, Hebrew citizens and enslaving/selling them, like what Joseph's brothers did when they sold him into slavery in Egypt.

Your opinion is noted.

[robvalue]

I changed my mind, slavery is fine now. I just bought 7. Some of them were still alive.

[Drich]

They exist. Star Trek is one example. Replicator technology and dilithium crystals!
Like in your robots example, there will be lots of people with no need for work - all food will be pretty much inexpensive, all clothing, all manufacturing, all economics, all politics, all will be done by machines and will cost only the materials required to keep them running: power and parts. Even these may be gotten by the machines themselves, with surplus enough for human usage.
They'll be self healing, or able to repair themselves, or have other machines to repair most machines.
Everyone... well, almost everyone, will have no work left to do.
The concept of trading money for labor may become a bit outdated.
With food, power, clothing, home, will be provided by the machines, people do whatever they want - cook, paint, travel, study, plant their own stuff.

Star trek was always at best a Dream like in it's vision of the future. If infact we can develop our robotics to the point where they can replace all slave labor, then in essence the robots become our slaves. and the current unskilled work force gets bumped up with nothing to do. except get retrained and flood the market above them and so on.

You're from America, so I understand why you can't grasp the concept of not working and getting stuff... like what happens in a few social states.
Around here, unemployed people get a subsidy from the state to help them stay alive and able to find a new job.

You mean like in Greece and Italy where lazy bums are paid to do nothing. seems to be working very well for them. The whole country of Greece has now become the lazy bum of the EU and demands to be paid for not working/producing.

In a situation where goods are inexpensive due to machine labor, state-side income is also low, so there's little money to go around... well, actually, the amount of money is the same... its worth is different.... its worthless. Money becomes useless.

If you want to say that we are making slave machines, then.. yes, I agree. But aren't we just anthropomorphizing machines?

It depends on their level of consciencousness.

yeah... that's why they buy american foreign debt...
Chinese communism isn't what it used to be 20 years ago.

They are buying American debt because it is backed by American gold. If we default they empty fort knox. There are a lot of rumors that on Obama's watch that is exactly what has happened.

If a return on investment is foreseeable, then it will be done.

Only if the return exceeds available profits now and in the future. If China remain communist state then they will have no reason to leave.

I was looking a bit further in time, but yeah... you're right about the next decade... it doesn't look healthy for most humanity.

If we can't make it the next 10 years then 'time' become irrelevant.

[Drich]

[color=#cc3399]Ok, regardless of what you think, Drich, you're being way too loosey goosey with the definition of slavery here.

Not my definition I provided a link to the state department that defined the different types of slavery. Also know Even Chattle slaves worked for goods/even money. Just not a living/livable wage.

Wage slavery, regardless of the conditions, isn't slavery in the classic sense of people not being able to live where they want, stop working when they want, or stop being  beaten when they want. Modern "wage slavery" is its own separate problem and is not the kind of bondage slavery that we're talking about when we discuss biblical slavery (which is what the bondage slavery in the South was expressly based on). That kind of slavery is illegal in a lot more places than it used to be, and modern world economies don't depend on it on anywhere near the scale they used to

Actually what you have identified as a wage slave do not have any of those freedoms. Most of them enter a contract the forbades them to come and go as they please. Most make living arrangments for them and their families apart of their wage. which they are under contract to complete. once their terms are up they can move on if the owe no debt to their company. If not they are locked in until they pay it all back or become unproductive and the company gets rid of them. Wouldn't you know that most have to sell their souls to the company store just to survive. which means they will never pay back all they owe based on what they make.

This is what disturbs me so much pinky, is your attitude to want to brush off this very real and active type of slavery, just because a white man is not beating a black man in a cotton field somewhere in a southern state. You don't seem to consider any of this slavery just because their is a market/partial compensation offered to these modern slaves. Again what you don't seem to get is the same was offered to the chattle slaves of the south. The difference between chattle slaves and these modern slaves? Chattle slaves were bought at a steep price which made the owners far more aggressive defending their property. Modern slaves? there are so many desperate and poor, these people do not have to be bought. they WILLING sign up for their slave jobs. This is the SAME Type of Slavery that was in the bible. This is also why I see those who condemn slavery in the bible but say or know nothing of the slavery in modern times as such hypocrits.

Do you honestly think if a 1700's southern plantation owner did not have to pay thousands if not 10's of thousands of dollars per slave, that if their were 10 people lining up desperately wanting to be a slave for every slave they owned, they they would have been so aggressive and demanded so much work from the slaves they paid for?

I'm not defending those slave owners in any way I am just pointing out the only real difference between what you identify as slavery and what is going on now and was going on at the time of Christ and before. It boils down to supply and demand.

Again, this is why I can not say slavery is all bad (Yes there are very bad elements to slavery and their were pure hitler level people who enjoyed their work in the slave trade.) which is why we need to own up to our soceities need for slavery so we can stop the mistreatment of slaves and make sure that all slaves get a fair relitive to their cost of living deal. Because Slavery at it's core is a way for the very poor and unskilled to provide the rest of society what it needs to sustain not only itself but the economic base that provides for them.

In this way that God calls us to be slaves. We are all the extremely poor and unskilled. We all were purchased at a very high price, and yet in return the burden we are given is far lighter than the burden we would bare on our own. Yet the rewards we get can far exceed anything we could ever want for ourselves.