The Problem with Christians

[Huggy Bear]

I just want to say thank you to the theist participants in this thread for quite comprehensively demonstrating the rationale set out in the OP. Well done!

How about a challenge? You dig up every illogical argument I've made, and i'll dig up every illogical argument made by atheists, and well tally up who has more...

deal?

[abaris]

I'm still waiting for the scientific argument for the existence of the supernatural. Which would be at the very foundation of this thread.

[Huggy Bear]

No, the basis of this thread is the pretension that Atheists don't make illogical arguments.

[AJW333]

The Bible correctly predicts the rise of an end-times antichrist system. Why would a ragtag bunch of Jews 2000 years ago have the audacity to predict that the entire world would end up engulfed in a battle between what they believed as Christians and the forces denying their beliefs. It's an outrageously unlikely prediction and yet here we are watching it unfold. Fundamental Islam is slaughtering people all over the world for simply refusing to submit to its totalitarian demands. How is my observation of the actions of Islam bigotry or ignorance?

If you despise the Christian faith, how on earth could you not feel the same way about Islam?

Hey dude? I'll give you a big ol' hint: the Islamic religion does not "deny" christian beliefs. Allah is the Abrahamic god, it's just a different interpretation than yours, with one extra prophet. Hell, Jesus is still an important, accepted Messianic figure in Islam, it's just that their story has a canonical third part, where yours stops at the New Testament. In no sense are christian beliefs denied by islam, and more than they're denied by freaking protestantism.

This comment probably deserves its own thread since it is so far off the mark. Islam denies that Jesus is the son of God. It denies that he is God, which is central to Christian belief. Their messiah is the twelfth imam or the Mahdi, and he is definitely not Jesus, in fact it is likely that the Mahdi is none other than the antichrist himself. Christianity says Jesus is the  only path to eternal life and Islam says that worship of Allah and Mohammed are the only path. I could go on and on about how the beliefs of the two religions contradict each other to the point of being diametrically opposed but this will suffice for now.    

Also, your description of this war is rather... limited, I believe intentionally so. You really think you've got just christians on one side, and islam on the other? These would be the same islamic terrorists who have also been attacking old temples dedicated to Baal, and even to destroying the culture of other islamic sects? Are you just not aware of the damage ISIS is wreaking on other religions? And wouldn't you have to conclude, taking into account the actual scope of the attacks here, and not simply those ones that impact you, that this is, in fact, not a battle between christianity and fundamentalist islam, but between fundamentalist islam and every other religion?

Fair point. It is noteworthy though that there are more than a few researchers stating that Christians are the most persecuted people group in the world, especially in the middle east.

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So I guess an anti-theistic government would suit you right down to the ground? In terms of anti-theistic regimes of the 20th century how well did they treat their  citizens? Not well when you consider that practically every communist (anti theist) country of the 20th century slaughtered huge numbers of their own people and denied them a host of basic human rights. Consider the USSR,  China, East Germany, Romania, North Korea, the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia etc etc. On the other hand, countries that we might consider "Christian" seemed to fare much better. I know where I'd rather live.

No one wants an anti-theistic government. What we want is for everyone to be free to believe whatever they want without the (secular) government getting involved-- or, as everyone else on the planet but religious fundamentalists like to call it, non-theocratic.

Forgive my skepticism but this is hard to believe. If you really value the rights of people to believe whatever they want, why all the antagonism towards believers? If you and/or others here think that religion causes nothing but problems, wouldn't you rather see it gotten rid of? I know that's how some folk on this forum think.

From a Christian perspective, I think it would be great to have Christian leaders. As an atheist, I presume you believe that is the best ideology so why wouldn't you want to see atheist leaders?

[Pat Mustard]

The Bible correctly predicts the rise of an end-times antichrist system.

Quick question: how can you have a correct prediction of something that hasn't happened? It's like me talking about that lovely, satisfying shit I'm going to have next Thursday.

You can't shit on Patrick's day! It takes too much time away from drinking.

[AJW333]

So I guess an anti-theistic government would suit you right down to the ground? In terms of anti-theistic regimes of the 20th century how well did they treat their  citizens? Not well when you consider that practically every communist (anti theist) country of the 20th century slaughtered huge numbers of their own people and denied them a host of basic human rights. Consider the USSR,  China, East Germany, Romania, North Korea, the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia etc etc. On the other hand, countries that we might consider "Christian" seemed to fare much better. I know where I'd rather live.

Here it is.  We old timers know whats coming.  INQUISITION.  600 years or so of christian rule.  Oh yeah, that went well.

The Inquisition was a godless, anti-Christian movement that totally misrepresented the faith. As bad as they were though, they never got close to the murderous efforts of the anti-theist communists of the 20th century, a time where there was precious little violence conducted by Christians.

[robvalue]

It's the no "No true Christian".

http://youtu.be/Fit7Yg5EjGQ

[AJW333]

Well that's an interesting argument but looking at a barren earth 4.5 billion years ago turning into a place that is literally teeming with incredibly complex life forms, it still represents a massive reversal of local entropy, especially considering that the contributions from outside the local system of the earth appear to be somewhat limited.

Somewhat limited?!  Do you not see that huge ball of light in the sky?

In full sun, you can safely assume about 100 watts of solar energy per square foot. If you assume 12 hours of sun per day, this equates to 438,000 watt-hours per square foot per year. Based on 27,878,400 square feet per square mile, sunlight bestows a whopping 12.2 trillion watt-hours per square mile per year.

With these assumptions, figuring out how much solar energy hits the entire planet is relatively simple. 12.2 trillion watt-hours converts to 12,211 gigawatt-hours, and based on 8,760 hours per year, and 197 million square miles of earth’s surface (including the oceans), the earth receives about 274 million gigawatt-years of solar energy, which translates to an astonishing 8.2 million “quads” of Btu energy per year.

In case you haven’t heard, a “quad Btu” refers to one quadrillion British Thermal Units of energy, a common term used by energy economists. The entire human race currently uses about 400 quads of energy (in all forms) per year. Put another way, the solar energy hitting the earth exceeds the total energy consumed by humanity by a factor of over 20,000 times.

http://www.ecoworld.com/energy-fuels/how...earth.html

Add as much heat as you want, that won't turn a random bunch of chemicals into a sophisticated self-replicating, error correcting code.

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The Bible correctly predicts that in the last days, the world will be affected by a system that is dedicated to the denial of Jesus as messiah. This will incorporate Islam which is openly anti-Christ, but is not limited to that religion. Interestingly, the reason I am on this forum is to investigate the rise in atheism - another anti-Christ belief system.

So you -are- the magic eight ball I asked you about.  You can tell me that these are the last days.  Why do I need magic book again?  

It is by studying the Bible that you realise these are the last days.

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The Bible correctly predicts the rise of an end-times antichrist system. Why would a ragtag bunch of Jews 2000 years ago have the audacity to predict that the entire world would end up engulfed in a battle between what they believed as Christians and the forces denying their beliefs. It's an outrageously unlikely prediction and yet here we are watching it unfold. Fundamental Islam is slaughtering people all over the world for simply refusing to submit to its totalitarian demands. How is my observation of the actions of Islam bigotry or ignorance?

If you despise the Christian faith, how on earth could you not feel the same way about Islam?

The only thing your bible correctly predicts is that humans will act according to their nature. Nature! It's something that really doesn't give a fuck about Jesus, Mohammad, Jehova, Brahma, Buddha, Zeus, Zoroaster, Ishtar, nor Thor.

Various researchers have concluded that it is a natural part of being human to acknowledge the existence of a deity. It is the atheists that are the tiny minority.

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AJW333

If it makes good sense to associate Islam with a worldwide and supernatural dictator, then it makes equal or better sense to associate evangelical Christianity with the same. If it's they who expect this, then it's they who will do their best to bring it.

AJW333 Wrote:

Are you saying that Christians wish to bring the antichrist?

Are you really ignorant enough to doubt that?

Christian deadbeats live far beyond their means on credit, betting that Jesus will return and set them free of their debt before it comes time to pay up.

Mega-church evangelical pastors are raking in billions of dollars while lobbying Congress to support Israel, which exists with our support specifically because American Christians, who are a bit more numerous than our US 1% Jewish population, want them to aggravate Muslim cultures into a conflict which will result in the next world war, which they presume will bring that final "Battle of Armageddon" which was "prophesied" in their bible. Idiots are raking in millions from writing fantasy books about the "Tribulation" which they say will come after the expected "Rapture" happens. It never will happen, but that won't deter people from engaging in an alluring and self-satisfying fantasy!

It's times like these when I'm glad I'm not an American Christian trying to defend the excesses of the various movements making a complete meal of the faith. We don't have anywhere near this kind of nonsense in Australia.

[AJW333]

The Bible correctly predicts the rise of an end-times antichrist system.

Quick question: how can you have a correct prediction of something that hasn't happened? It's like me talking about that lovely, satisfying shit I'm going to have next Thursday.

The antichrist system has been around for a long time and is growing. The fact that persecution of Christians has grown dramatically in recent years is testament to this. It is interesting that a handful of Jewish Christians would predict that not only would their religion be around in 2000 years but that it would attract such opposition.

[The Grand Nudger]

Obviously studying magic book doesn't tell us that we're in the end times.  People have been studying magic book since magic book was written and have been confidently declaring their own generation to be the last, that the end is nigh.  They've been wrong.  I don't blame them, as we've determined, magic book says many things.   Perhaps you should have all taken a breath, and waited for the return of your king, before declaring any specific time to be the end time?

Why do you think people have been getting it wrong? Is magic book wrong? Is magic book unclear? Have it's readers, including yourself, failed to properly leverage magic book?