Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: June 25, 2022, 3:34 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
(November 18, 2017 at 3:43 pm)Godscreated Wrote:
(November 18, 2017 at 1:15 pm)possibletarian Wrote: Fair enough, but why do you believe what you say to be truth, if all you are doing is repeating in a thoughtless parrot fashion what is written elsewhere ?
What means have you used to test if it is truth or not ?
  I never give thoughtless answers, nor ask thoughtless questions, that would be a waste of peoples time something I do not believe in.
The means I use is living a relationship with God and watching Him work through me and keep His promise in ways that are unmistakable. Would they make sense to you know, why, because they are things meant for me through our personal relationship. You might think you're hearing the same old stuff you've heard before, ever consider that Christians are actually experiencing God and He is doing for them as He promised He would do for all His children.
GC

That does not answer my question I have of course considered if people are hearing god, but as an ex believer and having had that experience, and then realised it is in fact not from a god (of any type).
It was when i began to question it's truth (rather than just accepting it) that i realised it was all clever manipulation happening in my head. again I ask how have you tested it's truth ?
'Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid'
Reply
RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
(November 18, 2017 at 6:39 am)alpha male Wrote:
(November 17, 2017 at 6:10 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Let me try this again. 😛

Firstly, I have no vested interest in complaining about either of those things, because I don't believe either actually exists.  I am merely pointing out that even if I assume for the sake of the argument all of this is true, the narrative still doesn't make sense.  God decided our lives for us the second he made the conscious decision to poof humanity into existence, despite seeing ahead of time how many of us would be damned.  In what way then, are we free?  And why, if we aren't truely free, should we deserve eternity in hell for making the wrong "choice"?

I'm not arguing in this discussion that we're free. I'm taking the lack of free will to its logical conclusion. If our every thought and action was predetermined in that second, then we don't actually exist in any meaningful sense.

An analogy would be a program mimicking human thoughts running through a computer. You could have the same kinds of things running through it as we experience, the joys, the sufferings - ponderings about how it came to be, complaints about its lot - everything. But, since this was all written in advance by another being, that computer is not a being itself. It has no right to only have happy thoughts. You could take the computer and toss it in a fire and no one would condemn you for so doing.

If you interpret omniscience such that it predetermines our every thought and precludes free will, then a person is no more than that computer program.

If you can find me a computer program capable of experiencing joy, suffering, and self-awareness then I may agree with you, lol.  This is your religion, not mine.  I agree that logically speaking, god's alleged power combined with his alleged omniscience would render free will logically impossible.  But alas, Christianity wants to have its cake and eat it too.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
Reply
RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
(November 17, 2017 at 9:45 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:
(November 17, 2017 at 8:10 pm)SteveII Wrote:
(November 17, 2017 at 6:57 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I feel like I'm not explaining my thoughts properly.

So, god is sitting around contemplating creating existence and people.  He, I dunno, imagines what he would like in a creation.  The instant he does so, he sees/understands exactly how the entire scenario is going to play out, including the choices and fates of every single human being who would end up existing.  Now that he understands how plan A will go, he has to make some decisions.  I'll posit some options below:

* Go forward with plan A anyway, knowing how many of his "children" he'll be damning to an eternity of suffering.

* Perhaps a plan B.  Same as plan A, minus hell.

* Plan C.  Don't go through with it at all, and save everyone's soul in an instant.

* Plan D.  Something else.  Anything else.  Make purple smurfs who are morally perfect and incapable of sin.  He's god; he can literally do anything.

But, God chooses plan A for us, doesn't he?  Where was our choice; our will in all of this?  We had none.  We were never meaningfully in control of our existence. God picked what he wanted for our souls out of an infinite number of possibilities, knowing how it would play out, and said, "this is the future I've chosen for you."  Please explain to me again, how are we free?

Quote:Plan A includes creating us with free will. This is important because it seems thinking, rational beings capable of choice, morality, and a real relationship between creator and creature seems to be the pinnacle of anything anyone could ever create--including God.

So, is god limited in his creative forces? 

If God created people with free will, then he has by definition, subordinated his ability to control everything.

Quote:
Quote:Plan B is not possible. Holiness and justice are essential (couldn't have been any other way) to God. They are perfections. Sin (from A) creates the barrier because of his Holiness and a need to pay the penalty because of his justice.


So, god is not capable of thinking up a consequence that teaches his creation the error of his ways without damning him to eternal torture?  I mean, why was torture the only option?  I'm starting to feel like this god character is not as all-powerful as people allege he is.

Two things. If you are asking could he have done something else, then no. A perfect nature can not be violated, ever. The consequence is separation from God. It is not like there is some overlord planning out the daily torture. The torture is just complete separation from God--something that apparently has a tremendous effect on the soul.  

Quote:
Quote:Plan C -- God chose to create thinking, rational beings capable of choice, morality, and a real relationship between creator and creatures. I, for one am not going to whine that I should never have had existed and my wife and children shouldn't have existed because other people make the wrong choice. The potentially infinite goodness available to all, chosen by a minority does not make God's choice to create everything problematic from a logical nor a moral standpoint.

Billions of thinking, feeling, living, loving humans in the world, and you take no moral issue with the lot of them suffering in pain for a literal eternity, in many cases simply for the fact that they were raised with the "wrong" religion, or born in the wrong location?  These are the actions of an all-loving being?

I dunno, Steve.  Coming back to my original charge, each response to my hypothetical scenarios seems to imply either lack of ability or lack of will on the part of your god.

IMO (with Biblical support), God makes his presence known to everyone at some point and each is judged on his/her response to the information they have been given. Wrong religion or wrong location does not mean hell. God's ability or lack of will has nothing to do with it. These are the consequences of the conjunction of free will, God's holiness, and God's justice. 

Quote:Yes, God chose plan A for us. I for one, am glad he did. He did NOT chose a future for us -- only that we had a future to chose. Listen, there is nothing illogical about any of this. You objection is on an emotional level. I understand that. But it really isn't the problem you imagine for Christianity.

It's certainly illogical when your god is supposedly omnibenevolent and omnipotent.  We, as a civilization, don't even torture serial killers for the remainder of their finite lives, lol.
[/quote]
Omnibenevolent and omnipotence subordinated to our Free Will. People don't go to hell for finite crimes. They go to hell for rejecting an infinite God while possessing an infinite soul, therefore infinite consequences.
Reply
RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
Soul, noun

An undetectable thing that an undetectable god cares the most about.
Reply
RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
(November 18, 2017 at 9:04 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: If you can find me a computer program capable of experiencing joy, suffering, and self-awareness then I may agree with you, lol.

One could write a computer program with the same thoughts as a person experiencing joy, suffering, and self-awareness.

Quote:This is your religion, not mine.  I agree that logically speaking, god's alleged power combined with his alleged omniscience would render free will logically impossible.

You don't agree, as I don't hold that myself. I'm just running the argument out to the end and showing that it self destructs.

Quote:But alas, Christianity wants to have its cake and eat it too.

Atheists want to have their cake and eat it too. That's exactly what they do when they argue that there's no free will, yet we're somehow autonomous beings with rights. Makes no sense.
Reply
RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
(November 19, 2017 at 9:02 pm)alpha male Wrote:
(November 18, 2017 at 9:04 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: If you can find me a computer program capable of experiencing joy, suffering, and self-awareness then I may agree with you, lol.

One could write a computer program with the same thoughts as a person experiencing joy, suffering, and self-awareness.

Quote:This is your religion, not mine.  I agree that logically speaking, god's alleged power combined with his alleged omniscience would render free will logically impossible.

You don't agree, as I don't hold that myself. I'm just running the argument out to the end and showing that it self destructs.

Quote:But alas, Christianity wants to have its cake and eat it too.

Atheists want to have their cake and eat it too. That's exactly what they do when they argue that there's no free will, yet we're somehow autonomous beings with rights. Makes no sense.

I'm not saying there is no such thing as free will, Alpha.  I'm saying that within in the context of your religious narrative; it's not logically possible, even though your god tells you otherwise.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
Reply
RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
(November 19, 2017 at 9:42 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I'm not saying there is no such thing as free will, Alpha.  I'm saying that within in the context of your religious narrative; it's not logically possible, even though your god tells you otherwise.

And I'm pointing out that with that position, people are not autonomous beings with rights, so the charge that God is immoral to punish is unfounded.
Reply
RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
Just a kid burning ants with a magnifying glass.  This makes it.....better?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
(November 17, 2017 at 8:10 pm)SteveII Wrote: It seems that God has made it clear to everyone at some point that he exists and should be sought after. You don't need to have heard of Jesus or the cross. God will judge you on how you responded with the information you were given. 

NOTE: I haven't said this in a while: I always argue from my doctrinal positions. Others may have a different perspective.

What a load of crap. You believe it, so it MUST be clear to everyone.

(November 18, 2017 at 6:39 am)alpha male Wrote: If you interpret omniscience such that it predetermines our every thought and precludes free will, then a person is no more than that computer program.

One more reason why I don't buy into christianity.

(November 18, 2017 at 12:05 am)SteveII Wrote: No, it is not a logical question. It's an argument from incredulity. "I can't imagine a God who would..." It is not "It is not logically possible that God had a good reason for creating the world".

No, it's that you're using one word (omniscient") and then changing the definition when holes in you story are pointed out.

(November 18, 2017 at 4:48 pm)Godscreated Wrote:
(November 16, 2017 at 10:19 am)Harry Nevis Wrote:


I haven't read one of your posts in months and intend to never read another, as the Bible tells me, wipe the dust off your feet and leave those who reject you, with you I have. You continue to impress your friends here if it pleases you but with me you're wasting your time. But then I believe you are doing the same with your life.

GC

What a baby.
"The last superstition of the human mind is the superstition that religion in itself is a good thing."  - Samuel Porter Putnam
 
           

Reply
RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
(November 18, 2017 at 5:59 pm)possibletarian Wrote:
(November 18, 2017 at 3:43 pm)Godscreated Wrote:   I never give thoughtless answers, nor ask thoughtless questions, that would be a waste of peoples time something I do not believe in.
The means I use is living a relationship with God and watching Him work through me and keep His promise in ways that are unmistakable. Would they make sense to you know, why, because they are things meant for me through our personal relationship. You might think you're hearing the same old stuff you've heard before, ever consider that Christians are actually experiencing God and He is doing for them as He promised He would do for all His children.
GC

That does not answer my question I have of course considered if people are hearing god, but as an ex believer and having had that experience, and then realised it is in fact not from a god (of any type).
It was when i began to question it's truth (rather than just accepting it) that i realised it was all clever manipulation happening in my head. again I ask how have you tested it's truth ?

 I absolutely answered your questions, it's not my fault you want accept the answers, that's on you, period. You were never a believer, just a pretender, even to yourself, delusional might fit what you were, certainly not a Christian. I told you in the above bold you will not receive a different answer because I've given you the truth. I know you would rather hear a lie, and the scriptures tell us that people like you would rather hear a lie than the truth because a lie will pacify the ungodly. I refuse to pacify your unbelief.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  7th grader commits suicide after being told that he is going to Hell. Jehanne 12 514 December 9, 2021 at 9:45 pm
Last Post: Ferrocyanide
  Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims Ten 177 7265 June 9, 2021 at 11:14 am
Last Post: John 6IX Breezy
  Video #2 Why bad things happen to Good people. Drich 13 1086 January 6, 2020 at 11:05 am
Last Post: BrianSoddingBoru4
  Christian family fined after arguing taxes 'against God's will' zebo-the-fat 19 1245 July 23, 2019 at 1:26 pm
Last Post: The Valkyrie
  Why did the Jews lie about Jesus? Fake Messiah 65 3568 March 28, 2019 at 5:32 pm
Last Post: Aliza
  Did Jesus call the Old Testament God the Devil, a Murderer and the Father of Lies? dude1 51 5775 November 6, 2018 at 12:46 pm
Last Post: Angrboda
  New way: Open Source Christianity Born in Iran. A-g-n-o-s-t-i-c 28 3082 September 9, 2018 at 2:22 pm
Last Post: brewer
  My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? vorlon13 92 5772 July 23, 2018 at 8:20 am
Last Post: SteveII
  Why, God? Why?! LadyForCamus 233 22153 June 5, 2018 at 12:57 pm
Last Post: Angrboda
  Why don't we have people named Jesus? Alexmahone 28 4239 April 5, 2018 at 8:17 pm
Last Post: Jenny A



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)