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The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
#41
RE: The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
Quote:MysticKnight

Quran is enough, it's sufficient, but with knowledge. And you and I can't be the center of attention for humans regarding it's knowledge if we have all it's knowledge, because, we have no proof we have it's knowledge.


If it's sufficient; there won't be a "but with".
It's not sufficient. It doesn't even fit for a legit answer.
There is no "but with" MK. "but with" according to whom?

Quote:I thought I replied to your contention. You and I both believe Quran uses reasoning. So if leadership is mentioned it with respect to these topics, it's obviously related, both the non-appointed type to reject and the appointed by God type to take refuge in and seek the insight to truth by.


You didn't reply. You "countered". I don't consider "counters" to be answers. That is not an answer.
Remember this question? You can't even find a clue of what you believe in the source book of Islam.

https://atheistforums.org/thread-51114-p...pid1638839

The sect's faith you believe in -the Shiite faith- is mere lies enforced by some of the followers of the Arab Caliph Ali; it is fed to people like you through the ages; feeding that created nothing but wars and death.

Think about it. I hate to see you get used like that by the Shiite institution.
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#42
RE: The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
It amazes me that people are still bickering over which prince should have succeeded the magic man in a kingdom that no longer exists.

I don't give a shit.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#43
RE: The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
Whatever the case Khemikal, be it Islam is true or not, if a book is to be from God, the interpretation wars have to end, and it can only end if we rely on a sure means of getting us out of the hell hole of conjecture.

We need leadership that gives insight, and we can't let every person who wants to lead, to lead. There needs to be proof.

I think you and I agree on a lot, I haven't ever proven to you Mohammad and the family of Mohammad are the family of the reminder to be relied on of this time, nor that they are the true Kings.

And that is and will never be my job. All I can show you is some abstract properties of the religion that is true of all times. It's up to you find the true instances of the true religion.

Those who are instances of God's Name are the ones to be relied on to know God. Not me, like you guys always says if I prove God and religion, it can be true of Judaism, other forms of non-trinity Christianity, it can be other faiths like Taoism.

Yet if there is a true religion, we should all agree, it's really going to have be the chosen leaders and guides that make the case for it, and God guides through representatives he appoints and not people we just say have a calling and are appointed by God with no proof.
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#44
RE: The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
(March 28, 2018 at 5:01 pm)Khemikal Wrote: It amazes me that people are still bickering over which prince should have succeeded the magic man in a kingdom that no longer exists.

I don't give a shit.

It's not even a thing but if you believe in the Hadith.
Hundreds of Hadiths mention the case, and that what creates the sects: two masses of Muslims, who -just like MK- believe in the following:


Quote:MysticKnight

Quran is enough, it's sufficient, but with knowledge. And you and I can't be the center of attention for humans regarding it's knowledge if we have all it's knowledge, because, we have no proof we have it's knowledge.

"The But With" is the Hadith books that define the two sects.
Open the Quran alone; and you won't find a word about the "but with".
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#45
RE: The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
(March 28, 2018 at 4:35 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:
(March 28, 2018 at 4:32 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Someone is certainly extolling the virtue of blindly following.   Rolleyes

But hey, if you think there's reasoning in magic book, and it;s the reasoning that counts..I don't need guides or magic books.

Once you see, what you see, you don't need them anymore, but regarding what you don't know, you need them again to show you, so that you see and perceive, without them, you will not be able walk the path nor make it to safety on the ship, you need their navigation and driving.

Now you use the words "path" and "navigation".

Keep in mind you could be a Christian or Jew or Hindu or Buddhist, I wouldn't care.

To me basing your life on the claims of antiquity would be like using a kaleidoscope, when we have the Hubble Space Telescope.

Roads are paths, but they are no longer dirt are they? Our navigation as a species isn't simply looking at the stars now, we have GPS now.

I am sure you are happy having a computer no longer having to send messages by horse right? 

I don't think ANY of the holy writings ANYWHERE in the world have any real barring on our modern knowledge of scientific fact. The reason humans still cling to the claims of antiquity is that parents pass them down to their kids long before they can formulate critical thinking skills.

I didn't make it to Australia to see my friend because I read any holy writing. I got there because I picked up a modern phone, booked my flight and relied on a modern JET with modern technology.
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#46
RE: The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
(March 28, 2018 at 4:57 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: If it's sufficient; there won't be a "but with".
Ok so what happens if people read Quran heedlessly and don't reflect?
Because part of it's paradigm is that reflection is required for guidance.
So it is sufficient to guide us or are we required to reflect and use our minds?
So by your definition of sufficient, "but you need to use your mind and reflect" would undermine it.
Ok suppose it is not sufficient, the issue God is sufficient as a Guide.
He is the reliable support. In the past, scriptures along with Ahlulbayts like the family of Abraham was always the way, but from some reason, Mohammad's family you think is undermining revelation, when rather, it's the way God makes sure revelation to be followed not according to whim but insight.

(March 28, 2018 at 5:07 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:
(March 28, 2018 at 5:01 pm)Khemikal Wrote: It amazes me that people are still bickering over which prince should have succeeded the magic man in a kingdom that no longer exists.

I don't give a shit.

It's not even a thing but if you believe in the Hadith.
Hundreds of Hadiths mention the case, and that what creates the sects: two masses of Muslims, who -just like MK- believe in the following:


Quote:MysticKnight

Quran is enough, it's sufficient, but with knowledge. And you and I can't be the center of attention for humans regarding it's knowledge if we have all it's knowledge, because, we have no proof we have it's knowledge.

"The But With" is the Hadith books that define the two sects.
Open the Quran alone; and you won't find a word about the "but with".

Tell me can a person just read Quran and not know Arabic. So what happens then?

It in fact emphasizes so many people will remain utterly blind to it's clear proofs and won't hear any of it's wisdom. And you witness this is the state of humans over all.
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#47
RE: The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
(March 28, 2018 at 5:04 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: We need leadership that gives insight, and we can't let every person who wants to lead, to lead. There needs to be proof.
If there were proof we wouldn't need those leaders.  

Quote:I think you and I agree on a lot,  I haven't ever proven to you Mohammad and the family of Mohammad are the family of the reminder to be relied on of this time, nor that they are the true Kings.
I don't recognize kingship in the first place, so it wouldn't matter to me if you did or if they were.  

Quote:Yet if there is a true religion, we should all agree, it's really going to have be the chosen leaders and guides that make the case for it, and God guides through representatives he appoints and not people we just say have a calling and are appointed by God with no proof.
I disagree. The case makes itself or it isn't made. I have absolutely no use for imams...and if that case was ever made, whatever that case is..I'm not going to fall to my knees by default anyway.

This is something I always express to people..but I feel like they never really absorb it. I legitimately don't care whether or not your god or any god exists. Let that sink in. I;m just not that guy. I'll walk into the mouth of hell with my eyes wide open on a lawful order in service of a just cause over and over again....but these knees will only hit the ground once, in death. Your submission has been bought for nothing, by people who have neither authority nor a just cause...but mine is beyond their ability to purchase.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#48
RE: The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
(March 28, 2018 at 5:10 pm)Khemikal Wrote:
(March 28, 2018 at 5:04 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: We need leadership that gives insight, and we can't let every person who wants to lead, to lead. There needs to be proof.
If there were proof we wouldn't need those leaders.  
Unless the leaders are the proofs, see the Surah called "The manifest proof". It didn't say it's the Quran alone, it said it's a Messenger who recites...
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#49
RE: The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
(March 28, 2018 at 5:12 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:
(March 28, 2018 at 5:10 pm)Khemikal Wrote: If there were proof we wouldn't need those leaders.  
Unless the leaders are the proofs

If you think that, then you don’t understand what the word proof means, MK.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
Reply
#50
RE: The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
(March 28, 2018 at 5:12 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Unless the leaders are the proofs, see the Surah called "The manifest proof". It didn't say it's the Quran alone, it said it's a Messenger who recites...

-and even after that, you think reading magic book will have any effect on me?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



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