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RE: Theists: Hitchens Wager
April 22, 2018 at 6:01 pm
If not, then I agree with you Chimp. An atheist can have the same moral values as a theist. They just can't think those moral values (or any moral values) are correct or incorrect.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Theists: Hitchens Wager
April 22, 2018 at 6:02 pm
(This post was last modified: April 22, 2018 at 6:04 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
(April 22, 2018 at 5:51 pm)henryp Wrote: (April 22, 2018 at 5:39 pm)Hammy Wrote: Yeah because he's shit at it. I agree. You'd have to be really terrible at critical thinking to think Khemikal is a good debater, right? You've been on these forums forever. Did you not realize in all that time the majority of atheists on here were incredibly shitty critical thinkers?
No of course I noticed but that's just because most people in general are.
The atheists here are on average much better at it than the average population though. And this is still my favorite forum ever. And there are a few really smart people around here.
I was young when I got here though. My critical thinking has improved over the years. So it has become more and more obvious over time.
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RE: Theists: Hitchens Wager
April 22, 2018 at 6:05 pm
Khem winning best debater is bizarre. I saw he won it several years back, too. Or at least, he seems to always place in the top 3. Weird.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Theists: Hitchens Wager
April 22, 2018 at 6:06 pm
(This post was last modified: April 22, 2018 at 6:06 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
(April 22, 2018 at 6:01 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: If not, then I agree with you Chimp. An atheist can have the same moral values as a theist. They just can't think those moral values (or any moral values) are correct or incorrect.
Or we can think it, like I do. But you think that I'm wrong to think it, right?
I am sure you believe that I genuinely believe that morality is objective without God. You're just confused by it because as far as you're concerned that's not possible without God. Right?
(April 22, 2018 at 5:51 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: In other words, as a theist I can claim that rape is objectively immoral, for example. Does that work?
How does God saying something is moral or immoral make it moral or immoral?
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RE: Theists: Hitchens Wager
April 22, 2018 at 6:07 pm
(April 22, 2018 at 6:06 pm)Hammy Wrote: (April 22, 2018 at 6:01 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: If not, then I agree with you Chimp. An atheist can have the same moral values as a theist. They just can't think those moral values (or any moral values) are correct or incorrect.
Or we can think it, like I do. But you think that I'm wrong to think it, right?
I am sure you believe that I genuinely believe that morality is objective without God. You're just confused by it because as far as you're concerned that's not possible without God. Right?
(April 22, 2018 at 5:51 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: In other words, as a theist I can claim that rape is objectively immoral, for example. Does that work?
How does God saying something is moral or immoral make it moral or immoral?
Correct, Ham. I do not think you are being dishonest.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Theists: Hitchens Wager
April 22, 2018 at 6:07 pm
(This post was last modified: April 22, 2018 at 6:08 pm by chimp3.)
(April 22, 2018 at 6:01 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: If not, then I agree with you Chimp. An atheist can have the same moral values as a theist. They just can't think those moral values (or any moral values) are correct or incorrect. That is ignorant. Sorry CL, but that is and it does not address the OP. Your claim is the worst aspect of religious thinking. That we can not be moral with out "Divine"permission . I don't buy it!
God thinks it's fun to confuse primates. Larsen's God!
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RE: Theists: Hitchens Wager
April 22, 2018 at 6:10 pm
(April 22, 2018 at 6:01 pm)chimp3 Wrote: (April 22, 2018 at 5:58 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Can't the claim I state be "rape is objectively immoral, and if you think rape is moral, you are wrong"?
I don't think you understand this wager.
I think she is confusing metaethics with normative ethics. Hitchens wager concerns normative statements. The question to "What even is goodness anyway?" is more along the lines of whether morality is objective, etc.
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RE: Theists: Hitchens Wager
April 22, 2018 at 6:11 pm
(This post was last modified: April 22, 2018 at 6:11 pm by BrianSoddingBoru4.)
Quote:Look, I like you, you're a nice guy, and I don't have many friends. If I had 100 million and you had PayPal you wouldn't be getting nothing.
I always knew double negatives would make me rich. 
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Theists: Hitchens Wager
April 22, 2018 at 6:14 pm
(This post was last modified: April 22, 2018 at 6:17 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
(April 22, 2018 at 6:05 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Khem winning best debater is bizarre. I saw he won it several years back, too. Or at least, he seems to always place in the top 3. Weird.
He's just good at strawmanning people, IMO. But I don't want this to be another rant against Khem thread... because I'm the common denominator and I don't wanna get in trouble. I've already been banned over silly shit before. I definitely went a little overboard trying to get rid of Pool (although I was trying to hurry up the inevitable, my intentions were good, but indeed they were irrelevant. Although yes, I was clearly 100% right about him and I was just facepalming over Pool's whole facade)... but then when I made a parody thread about Neo but merely didn't directly state that it was a parody thread, I even put it in the humor section but that wasn't good enough, I still got warned for trolling lol. Even though loads of people have parodied other people's threads and that wasn't seen as trolling at all /rant
Anyways, the point is that although we both agree on the matter of Khem, and henryp/wallym appears to too. I'm the common denominator because I can't stand the guy. And I don't wanna get in trouble for it (anytime I continually talk about one specific person it gets considered trolling and I get told I'm "following" them around (what does that even mean on an internet forum when I'm just more interested in responding to or talking about some people more than others? There's no malice here, just infuriation at someone who gets on my tits)).
My spats with Khem go all the way back to 2012, when I played devil's advocate for pantheism, and the entire thread was about some very basic point that he couldn't grasp. I still doubt that he could.
But yeah, please I'll be sure to be the one who gets in trouble if we keep talking about it. Just because when I'm feeling ranty I express it. I've always been like that, but the rules are changing around me.
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RE: Theists: Hitchens Wager
April 22, 2018 at 6:16 pm
I don't have any trouble thinking that my moral values are correct. I wasn't aware that anyone had such an inconvenient problem.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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