Atheist Bible Study 1: Genesis

[Drich]

just remember Abraham assholishness was a product of the 'morality' of his society. If he were perfect he would have trusted God but he wasn't and these character flaws show us that we do not have to be perfect in order to be greatly used by God to accomplish world changing things.

Remember without god Abraham would have been murdered for his wife and she taken as a sex slave. Yes god saved them and awarded him by having the kings of the regions pay a high bounty for doing nothing, but at the same time do you really think the bounty would have been so high if they would not have plotted and killed abraham?

[GrandizerII]

Ishmael Dies As Well
Genesis 25:12-18

Ishmael dies (at the age of 137), leaving behind twelve sons who rule their respective tribes.

Nothing much going on here, but we're finally about to start the story of Jacob (another interesting Bible character with an interesting journey).

EDIT: Isaac, of course, is still alive. But Jacob's story starts while Isaac is still living.

[Bucky Ball]

just remember Abraham assholishness was a product of the 'morality' of his society. If he were perfect he would have trusted God but he wasn't and these character flaws show us that we do not have to be perfect in order to be greatly used by God to accomplish world changing things.

Remember without god Abraham would have been murdered for his wife and she taken as a sex slave. Yes god saved them and awarded him by having the kings of the regions pay a high bounty for doing nothing, but at the same time do you really think the bounty would have been so high if they would not have plotted and killed abraham?

It's a myth, created by humans for a specific purpose. 
It would have come out how they wanted it to, with or without the gods.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhiABi6vw3A

[Drich]

just remember Abraham assholishness was a product of the 'morality' of his society. If he were perfect he would have trusted God but he wasn't and these character flaws show us that we do not have to be perfect in order to be greatly used by God to accomplish world changing things.

Remember without god Abraham would have been murdered for his wife and she taken as a sex slave. Yes god saved them and awarded him by having the kings of the regions pay a high bounty for doing nothing, but at the same time do you really think the bounty would have been so high if they would not have plotted and killed abraham?

It's a myth, created by humans for a specific purpose. 
It would have come out how they wanted it to, with or without the gods.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhiABi6vw3A

if this were true then why not build the perfect protagonist?

or one that follow the typical story arch? 

why have the protagonist keep failing the same trial over and over and over again? All it does is undermine the character of the person who is supposed to be the moral standard.. This reeks of real life people and real life failures.

If a story's protagonist fails to learn a great moral lesson over and over again yet holds himself up to be the hero, he become little more than a hypocrite.. So why is Abraham not the father of hypocrisy? if what you say is true?

[Bucky Ball]

It's a myth, created by humans for a specific purpose. 
It would have come out how they wanted it to, with or without the gods.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhiABi6vw3A

if this were true then why not build the perfect protagonist?

or one that follow the typical story arch? 

why have the protagonist keep failing the same trial over and over and over again? All it does is undermine the character of the person who is supposed to be the moral standard.. This reeks of real life people and real life failures.

If a story's protagonist fails to learn a great moral lesson over and over again yet holds himself up to be the hero, he become little more than a hypocrite.. So why is Abraham not the father of hypocrisy? if what you say is true?

Some day, maybe you'll actually take a class and learn about ancient Near Eastern literature, and stop practicing the street level common error that amateurs do all the time ... "presentism".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism..._analysis)

[GrandizerII]

It's a myth, created by humans for a specific purpose. 
It would have come out how they wanted it to, with or without the gods.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhiABi6vw3A

if this were true then why not build the perfect protagonist?

or one that follow the typical story arch? 

why have the protagonist keep failing the same trial over and over and over again? All it does is undermine the character of the person who is supposed to be the moral standard.. This reeks of real life people and real life failures.

If a story's protagonist fails to learn a great moral lesson over and over again yet holds himself up to be the hero, he become little more than a hypocrite.. So why is Abraham not the father of hypocrisy? if what you say is true?

How I see it:

That perfect protagonist (in the eyes of the ancient Israelites) was God. Abraham and all the others are meant to be imperfect human models of righteousness through obedience and adherence to God's laws and commands. God is supposed to be the main hero here, not Abraham and others.

Anyway, it's not like Abraham failed so many times in his accounts that he could no longer be a human model for others morally speaking. He still walked with God, and was considered righteous because Abraham believed God (Genesis 15:6).

[Bucky Ball]

if this were true then why not build the perfect protagonist?

or one that follow the typical story arch? 

why have the protagonist keep failing the same trial over and over and over again? All it does is undermine the character of the person who is supposed to be the moral standard.. This reeks of real life people and real life failures.

If a story's protagonist fails to learn a great moral lesson over and over again yet holds himself up to be the hero, he become little more than a hypocrite.. So why is Abraham not the father of hypocrisy? if what you say is true?

How I see it:

That perfect protagonist (in the eyes of the ancient Israelites) was God. Abraham and all the others are meant to be imperfect human models of righteousness through obedience and adherence to God's laws and commands. God is supposed to be the main hero here, not Abraham and others.

Anyway, it's not like Abraham failed so many times in his accounts that he could no longer be a human model for others morally speaking. He still walked with God, and was considered righteous because Abraham believed God (Genesis 15:6).

Things were told exactly the way the editors / compilers wanted them told. They had a reason for telling everything as it was told. As we shall see later, when Ezra brought the Torah (scroll) of Moses back with him from the Exile, (the first time in human OR Biblical history it's mentioned, in the Book of Nehemiah), there is a specific reason for it, at that specific time. The various threads of the mythical traditions of the patriarchs were wound together, with places and people, (some of which are actually impossible, as we are about to see). The (supposed) ownership of some important places were written into the scroll, and "established" in the literary "history". There is also the attempted portrayal as Abraham's children as the progenitors of all the surrounding Canaanite and other generally local tribal families ... which of course is not at all true. These tribal entities were in place long before any of the migrating groups (which Abraham's group may have been), came into the area from the north and east. In the text he's portrayed as the father of nations and peoples. It's hardly a portrayal of failure. He had a HUGE family, sons to succeed him, and enjoyed wealth and position.

[The Grand Nudger]

why have the protagonist keep failing the same trial over and over and over again?

You ask that question like you've never read a book....? The inability of man to overcome their deficiencies is one of the oldest and most compelling narratives in all of human literature.

It's the fundamental narrative device of "sin", for fucks sake..... I have never understood how the themes of a book so incredibly important to people manage to completely escape them. Whatever else magic book is, it's a literary masterpiece...and pointing out some plot hole or problem of character development that could only -be- either thing if we were reading some third graders current news report is just beyond the pale, to me.

[GrandizerII]

Mischievous Jacob Is Born
Genesis 25:19-34

Isaac's wife, Rebekah, was unable to bear children. So Isaac prayed to God for her, and the prayer was answered (seems like there were some uses to prayer at the time). Rebekah gave birth to twins; the first child to come out was named Esau (who looked red and hairy as fuck) and the second child was named Jacob (because his hand was grasping Esau's heel as they came out). Isaac was 60 years old when the twins were born.

Growing up, Esau became a skilled hunter whereas Jacob was simply a homebody. Naturally, Isaac loved Esau (because Esau would bring him tasty wild game) and Rebekah loved Jacob (because a mother always loves her least loved son best).

One day, Jacob was cooking stew when Esau came back home from hunting, starving to death. Esau demanded Jacob give him some of that delicious stew, and Jacob demanded that Esau first sell him his birthright (because apparently that's something they did back then). So idiot Esau complied, and that is the end of this passage.

We can already see tension between Jacob and Esau right from the very start, even when they were still in their mother's womb, and the beginning of Jacob's dominance of Esau. According to the ancient Israelites, this was part symbolism for two nations in conflict with one another, with Edom (represented by Esau) eventually becoming subservient to Israel (represented by Jacob).

[Drich]

if this were true then why not build the perfect protagonist?

or one that follow the typical story arch? 

why have the protagonist keep failing the same trial over and over and over again? All it does is undermine the character of the person who is supposed to be the moral standard.. This reeks of real life people and real life failures.

If a story's protagonist fails to learn a great moral lesson over and over again yet holds himself up to be the hero, he become little more than a hypocrite.. So why is Abraham not the father of hypocrisy? if what you say is true?

How I see it:

That perfect protagonist (in the eyes of the ancient Israelites) was God. Abraham and all the others are meant to be imperfect human models of righteousness through obedience and adherence to God's laws and commands. God is supposed to be the main hero here, not Abraham and others.

Anyway, it's not like Abraham failed so many times in his accounts that he could no longer be a human model for others morally speaking. He still walked with God, and was considered righteous because Abraham believed God (Genesis 15:6).

You are describing a 'mary sue' type of protagonist like a "rey" from star wars.. where there is no story arch the character is just all powerful.  so there is no real story to be told as their is no challenge there is no obstacle to over come just a display of power. We as a people have been telling stories for a long long time even the ancient greek god followed these story arch rules, the all powerful God in story posin as there is nothing to be said or done to stop or change his will. Supermen is an example of this as he was impervious to everything so they had to invent kryptonite because he was getting boring with nothing too challenging to ever oppose him.. Again a lesson learned even by the egyptians and their God. so why oh why would the jews fall into this writers corner if what you say is true? Ultimately you make man and all examples of him a train wreck with no redeemable qualities or.. you god has to have a secrete flaw..

What story sells when are you heros are secretely the bad guys, and there is no hope and there is no redemption and nothing anyone can do?

Granted in you look at the NT and everything written you see who the hero is and how he saves the day... but 2000 years before that when this was written how could the author of genesis/moses have known how Christ would finish out the story? Unless there is a greater element to this than just a story?

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why have the protagonist keep failing the same trial over and over and over again?

You ask that question like you've never read a book....?  The inability of man to overcome their deficiencies is one of the oldest and most compelling narratives in all of human literature.

It's the fundamental narrative device of "sin", for fucks sake.....  I have never understood how the themes of a book so incredibly important to people manage to completely escape them.  Whatever else magic book is, it's a literary masterpiece...and pointing out some plot hole or problem of character development that could only -be- either thing if we were reading some third graders current news report is just beyond the pale, to me.

but as i just pointed out how could have the writter of genesis seen the larger arch that 2000 years to play out? yes I have read the book in it's completeed form but the guy writting this story in genesis didn't. so for him to lay the foundatons to an arch that would be completed 2000 year after his work was written is well more than a fluke.