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The ethics of worship
#11
RE: The ethics of worship
(September 11, 2020 at 7:57 am)zebo-the-fat Wrote: Why does a god need to be worshiped?  What does he/it get out of it?

I think he's compensating for something.....


A case of micropenis perhaps?
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#12
RE: The ethics of worship
(September 12, 2020 at 8:29 am)onlinebiker Wrote:
(September 11, 2020 at 7:57 am)zebo-the-fat Wrote: Why does a god need to be worshiped?  What does he/it get out of it?

I think he's compensating for something.....


A case of micropenis perhaps?

Evidently mary didn’t feel it.
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#13
RE: The ethics of worship
perspective.. you are evil. we all are. none are 'good.' which means your understanding of good and evil are wrong. they are backwards if you see yourself as a good person. Think about it thanos did not see himself as evil or the bad guy, but the savior. God is the opposite of you. meaning if you are good by default this makes god evil in your sight/under your standard of morality. so keep that in mind/filter my answer through this perspective.


(September 10, 2020 at 9:45 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: This thread was deleted by the mods on Christianforums.com, although they did not punish my account.  I didn't get the opportunity to get feedback from Christians.

Moses was unable to lead his people out of Egypt until Jehovah sent his tenth and final plague: the death of the firstborn son. Jehovah was already a child-killing god since he had sent the flood to kill nearly all life indiscriminately, but the tenth plague of Egypt actually depicts Jehovah targeting children. From that moment, Jehovah gained his reputation as a warlord deity.
1 you do not know any children died in the flood. the narrative never said a single child died. it is presumptuous of you to add to the story. remember the reason for the flood was to kill the nephilim which were taking over the planet (giants/demon human hybrids) that ate humans and people worshiped them. which means offering sacrifices which would have included children. not only that death has no bearing/evil connotation to god. you simply shed this corporeal form and appear before him in a spiritual form. which is to be issued an incorruptible body... if you are a follower. death is only an evil act to evil men who's life now is the only thing keeping them from hell. then to take that life would be the same as sentencing them to hell. that is why death is such an egregious sin to someone like you.. to god he can welcome them back or sent them around again in another life. death only stings the living.

Quote:However, during times of peace and prosperity, there is no need to worship a warlord deity. The Jews wasted no time constructing an idol, doing so before even reaching the promised land. Later on, they would worship Ashtaroth, the fertility goddess, instead of their old child-killing god, because they needed to flourish. Others also worshiped Baal.
not apart of the narrative. they did construct a idol, but because they lost faith in abraham as he had been gone so long
Quote:Molech was particularly hated because his followers burned their children alive in sacrifice to this deity, and Jehovah said that such a practice is abominable. In fact, the genocides perpetrated by Joshua are actually justified by some apologists because the followers of Molech engaged in these practices. Why is it ethical to worship a child-killing god, but yet it is unethical to worship a god who demands children as sacrifice?
because there is no point in which a child is safe with a god that demand child sacrifice. only age will free him from the threat of death. God only requires the life of those who would grow up to be monster themselves. which is no different than what we in this society do/demand.. we just have a different way of justifying the obliteration of a child or their mothers for that matter.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzNTzOP5trM
Quote:Some would say that it doesn't matter how "moral" fake gods are or how "immoral" the one true god seems to be. The "fact" that Jehovah is the creator of the universe is sufficient reasoning for us to worship him. I still have not seen anyone provide such actual reasoning, and further, this does assert the point in question. If the followers of Molech genuinely believe that their deity created the universe, then are they not morally justified in worshiping such a deity by the same reasoning?
as i pointed out morality is subjective. it means nothing in the scope. the true measure of morality is based on who the strongest is and their will. just like in all of history.. might make right. example we took germans/nazis to trial after wwii for crimes against humanity/killing civilians non combatants/targeting their cities. (the blitz bombing london) while in japan we burned out every major city and town besides the potential nuclear bomb cities. we killed millions, did hap arnold have to defend himself? no he was seen as a hero.. why? because we won the war/might makes right. similarly God is the alpha and omega there is no greater being or force greater than him, his might=right. and if you don't like it, you can literally go to hell.
Quote:Ethics are based entirely upon intent, not upon what is actually true. For example, a police officer could justify shooting someone if that person was quickly reaching into their jacket pocket, even if it turned out to be just a candy bar they were going after. Conversely, a police officer who shoots someone without provocation would be a murderer, even if the person they shot actually was secretly planning on committing a serious violent crime. So if the criteria for ethical worship is that the object of worship must be the creator of the universe, then many other religions aside from Christianity can claim to be ethical in this regard.
how hypocritical... you label god a child murder, when he in the scripture clearly state that a given race if not destroyed down to women/children and even farm animals will destroy the world. or in some cases rise up and destroy israel in the future, A god who knows and protects israel or the whole planet from such an evil people is considered a murder by your hypocrisy yet you can pretend to have discernment when a cop luckily shoots a potential hitler in the making.. why would anyone get a pass by getting luck and god gets condemned in your moral judgement when he makes a call and knows without doubt he is killing a people who will destroy the world.
Quote:Whether or not a certain deity created the universe, as a matter of fact and not as a matter of personal faith, is a question for apologetics. Do the ethics of worship come down to apologetics? If so, then Christians have largely bungled this pretty badly. If not, then Jehovah fails to separate himself from many other deities who also claim to have created the universe. So by what other criteria is it ethical to worship a child-killing god such as Jehovah?
nothing is bungled other than your own heart. you choose to find reason to hate god to assign him the stigma of child murderer when your own culture condones it if the circumstances are right yet will not hear or consider that when God calls for the death of a people he is saving the whole planet from a plague of isis type people.
Quote:Another issue is the apparent disconnect between ancient people and modern Christians. During my time as a Christian, I very much got the sense that no real Christian would accept a cash payment to bow down and worship, say, a statue of the Buddha. No amount would suffice. Not even a gun to the head would do it, and many of these Christians would not even claim to have experienced anything supernatural in their entire lives. Yet ancient Jews worshiped other gods all the time, despite apparently witnessing their god perform miracles with their very own eyes. How can this possibly happen?
you are simply talking to the wrong people or dismiss all who do experience god as being crazy/don't count. i can promise you every believer has experienced god is one way or another. some stronger than others but regaurdless the connection is there.
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#14
RE: The ethics of worship
Did noah have all the children on the magic boat too?

At any rate, claims of moral subjectivity which arise as a consequence of excusing your god for evil are unlikely to sway very many people.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#15
RE: The ethics of worship
(September 14, 2020 at 2:42 pm)Drich Wrote: perspective.. you are evil. we all are. none are 'good.' which means your understanding of good and evil are wrong. they are backwards if you see yourself as a good person. Think about it thanos did not see himself as evil or the bad guy, but the savior. God is the opposite of you. meaning if you are good by default this makes god evil in your sight/under your standard of morality. so keep that in mind/filter my answer through this perspective.


(September 10, 2020 at 9:45 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: This thread was deleted by the mods on Christianforums.com, although they did not punish my account.  I didn't get the opportunity to get feedback from Christians.

Moses was unable to lead his people out of Egypt until Jehovah sent his tenth and final plague: the death of the firstborn son. Jehovah was already a child-killing god since he had sent the flood to kill nearly all life indiscriminately, but the tenth plague of Egypt actually depicts Jehovah targeting children. From that moment, Jehovah gained his reputation as a warlord deity.
1 you do not know any children died in the flood. the narrative never said a single child died. it is presumptuous of you to add to the story. remember the reason for the flood was to kill the nephilim which were taking over the planet (giants/demon human hybrids) that ate humans and people worshiped them. which means offering sacrifices which would have included children. not only that death has no bearing/evil connotation to god. you simply shed this corporeal form and appear before him in a spiritual form. which is to be issued an incorruptible body... if you are a follower. death is only an evil act to evil men who's life now is the only thing keeping them from hell. then to take that life would be the same as sentencing them to hell. that is why death is such an egregious sin to someone like you.. to god he can welcome them back or sent them around again in another life. death only stings the living.

Quote:However, during times of peace and prosperity, there is no need to worship a warlord deity. The Jews wasted no time constructing an idol, doing so before even reaching the promised land. Later on, they would worship Ashtaroth, the fertility goddess, instead of their old child-killing god, because they needed to flourish. Others also worshiped Baal.
not apart of the narrative. they did construct a idol, but because they lost faith in abraham as he had been gone so long
Quote:Molech was particularly hated because his followers burned their children alive in sacrifice to this deity, and Jehovah said that such a practice is abominable. In fact, the genocides perpetrated by Joshua are actually justified by some apologists because the followers of Molech engaged in these practices. Why is it ethical to worship a child-killing god, but yet it is unethical to worship a god who demands children as sacrifice?
because there is no point in which a child is safe with a god that demand child sacrifice. only age will free him from the threat of death. God only requires the life of those who would grow up to be monster themselves. which is no different than what we in this society do/demand.. we just have a different way of justifying the obliteration of a child or their mothers for that matter.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzNTzOP5trM
Quote:Some would say that it doesn't matter how "moral" fake gods are or how "immoral" the one true god seems to be. The "fact" that Jehovah is the creator of the universe is sufficient reasoning for us to worship him. I still have not seen anyone provide such actual reasoning, and further, this does assert the point in question. If the followers of Molech genuinely believe that their deity created the universe, then are they not morally justified in worshiping such a deity by the same reasoning?
as i pointed out morality is subjective. it means nothing in the scope. the true measure of morality is based on who the strongest is and their will. just like in all of history.. might make right. example we took germans/nazis to trial after wwii for crimes against humanity/killing civilians non combatants/targeting their cities. (the blitz bombing london) while in japan we burned out every major city and town besides the potential nuclear bomb cities. we killed millions, did hap arnold have to defend himself? no he was seen as a hero.. why? because we won the war/might makes right. similarly God is the alpha and omega there is no greater being or force greater than him, his might=right. and if you don't like it, you can literally go to hell.
Quote:Ethics are based entirely upon intent, not upon what is actually true. For example, a police officer could justify shooting someone if that person was quickly reaching into their jacket pocket, even if it turned out to be just a candy bar they were going after. Conversely, a police officer who shoots someone without provocation would be a murderer, even if the person they shot actually was secretly planning on committing a serious violent crime. So if the criteria for ethical worship is that the object of worship must be the creator of the universe, then many other religions aside from Christianity can claim to be ethical in this regard.
how hypocritical... you label god a child murder, when he in the scripture clearly state that a given race if not destroyed down to women/children and even farm animals will destroy the world. or in some cases rise up and destroy israel in the future, A god who knows and protects israel or the whole planet from such an evil people is considered a murder by your hypocrisy yet you can pretend to have discernment when a cop luckily shoots a potential hitler in the making.. why would anyone get a pass by getting luck and god gets condemned in your moral judgement when he makes a call and knows without doubt he is killing a people who will destroy the world.
Quote:Whether or not a certain deity created the universe, as a matter of fact and not as a matter of personal faith, is a question for apologetics. Do the ethics of worship come down to apologetics? If so, then Christians have largely bungled this pretty badly. If not, then Jehovah fails to separate himself from many other deities who also claim to have created the universe. So by what other criteria is it ethical to worship a child-killing god such as Jehovah?
nothing is bungled other than your own heart. you choose to find reason to hate god to assign him the stigma of child murderer when your own culture condones it if the circumstances are right yet will not hear or consider that when God calls for the death of a people he is saving the whole planet from a plague of isis type people.
Quote:Another issue is the apparent disconnect between ancient people and modern Christians. During my time as a Christian, I very much got the sense that no real Christian would accept a cash payment to bow down and worship, say, a statue of the Buddha. No amount would suffice. Not even a gun to the head would do it, and many of these Christians would not even claim to have experienced anything supernatural in their entire lives. Yet ancient Jews worshiped other gods all the time, despite apparently witnessing their god perform miracles with their very own eyes. How can this possibly happen?
you are simply talking to the wrong people or dismiss all who do experience god as being crazy/don't count. i can promise you every believer has experienced god is one way or another. some stronger than others but regaurdless the connection is there.

Your poor English is too difficult to read and is not worth the effort or the investment of time.
Jesus is like Pinocchio.  He's the bastard son of a carpenter. And a liar. And he wishes he was real.
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#16
RE: The ethics of worship
When you have to claim a world with no children to make your narrative not make God look bad....
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#17
RE: The ethics of worship
(September 14, 2020 at 3:43 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Did noah have all the children on the magic boat too?

At any rate, claims of moral subjectivity which arise as a consequence of excusing your god for evil are unlikely to sway very many people.

I disagree on the sentiment of persuasion.

People, in my experience, will be swayed more by actions than an equal sentiment put into words. It does not matter, in this regard, whatever you say - if they do not correlate into action. The same way we use the most common fallacy of attributing sufficient correlation between two events with causing a preceding event with a following one, without even using some sort of proof of mechanism to demonstrate this.

In the case of theists, I think it's due to a deficiency in critical thinking. Especially so in examining their own faith. I don't know where this deficiency, which I think is present, comes from but I speculate it's a result of indoctrination, particularly of surrendering their ability to reason and trusting an authority figure to decide for them (Sunday school teacher, priest, bishop, pope) on what to think.

The result is that no matter the behavior recorded by 'holy' texts of their god, they're unable to determine if it is evil or not. I know this intimately, from when I still believed in a god of the Christian conviction.

But really, it's a question of efficiency of persuasion. So far, the leading apologists are so convinced of their tactic that they're able to lie to themselves, thanks to compartmentalization. Yet, I wouldn't be surprised by the amount of theist authority figures who realized they were in error, but resorted to grifting thanks to the human capital, power & wealth their position grants them.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard P. Feynman
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#18
RE: The ethics of worship
(September 15, 2020 at 5:49 am)Nihilist Virus Wrote:
(September 14, 2020 at 2:42 pm)Drich Wrote: perspective.. you are evil. we all are. none are 'good.' which means your understanding of good and evil are wrong. they are backwards if you see yourself as a good person. Think about it thanos did not see himself as evil or the bad guy, but the savior. God is the opposite of you. meaning if you are good by default this makes god evil in your sight/under your standard of morality. so keep that in mind/filter my answer through this perspective.


1 you do not know any children died in the flood. the narrative never said a single child died. it is presumptuous of you to add to the story. remember the reason for the flood was to kill the nephilim which were taking over the planet (giants/demon human hybrids) that ate humans and people worshiped them. which means offering sacrifices which would have included children. not only that death has no bearing/evil connotation to god. you simply shed this corporeal form and appear before him in a spiritual form. which is to be issued an incorruptible body... if you are a follower. death is only an evil act to evil men who's life now is the only thing keeping them from hell. then to take that life would be the same as sentencing them to hell. that is why death is such an egregious sin to someone like you.. to god he can welcome them back or sent them around again in another life. death only stings the living.

not apart of the narrative. they did construct a idol, but because they lost faith in abraham as he had been gone so long
because there is no point in which a child is safe with a god that demand child sacrifice. only age will free him from the threat of death. God only requires the life of those who would grow up to be monster themselves. which is no different than what we in this society do/demand.. we just have a different way of justifying the obliteration of a child or their mothers for that matter.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzNTzOP5trM
as i pointed out morality is subjective. it means nothing in the scope. the true measure of morality is based on who the strongest is and their will. just like in all of history.. might make right. example we took germans/nazis to trial after wwii for crimes against humanity/killing civilians non combatants/targeting their cities. (the blitz bombing london) while in japan we burned out every major city and town besides the potential nuclear bomb cities. we killed millions, did hap arnold have to defend himself? no he was seen as a hero.. why? because we won the war/might makes right. similarly God is the alpha and omega there is no greater being or force greater than him, his might=right. and if you don't like it, you can literally go to hell.
how hypocritical... you label god a child murder, when he in the scripture clearly state that a given race if not destroyed down to women/children and even farm animals will destroy the world. or in some cases rise up and destroy israel in the future, A god who knows and protects israel or the whole planet from such an evil people is considered a murder by your hypocrisy yet you can pretend to have discernment when a cop luckily shoots a potential hitler in the making.. why would anyone get a pass by getting luck and god gets condemned in your moral judgement when he makes a call and knows without doubt he is killing a people who will destroy the world.
nothing is bungled other than your own heart. you choose to find reason to hate god to assign him the stigma of child murderer when your own culture condones it if the circumstances are right yet will not hear or consider that when God calls for the death of a people he is saving the whole planet from a plague of isis type people.
you are simply talking to the wrong people or dismiss all who do experience god as being crazy/don't count. i can promise you every believer has experienced god is one way or another. some stronger than others but regaurdless the connection is there.

Your poor English is too difficult to read and is not worth the effort or the investment of time.

His claim has been that we are too stupid for him to waste his perfect English on.  That's his story anyway.
 “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.” ~Albert Einstein                                                 
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#19
RE: The ethics of worship
(September 15, 2020 at 3:32 pm)arewethereyet Wrote:
(September 15, 2020 at 5:49 am)Nihilist Virus Wrote: Your poor English is too difficult to read and is not worth the effort or the investment of time.

His claim has been that we are too stupid for him to waste his perfect English on.  That's his story anyway.

Lmao.
Jesus is like Pinocchio.  He's the bastard son of a carpenter. And a liar. And he wishes he was real.
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#20
RE: The ethics of worship
(September 14, 2020 at 3:43 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Did noah have all the children on the magic boat too?

At any rate, claims of moral subjectivity which arise as a consequence of excusing your god for evil are unlikely to sway very many people.

what children??? the bible never mentions them/any at the time of the flood. that is an atheist add on.
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