(March 28, 2018 at 3:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I'm saying our minds cannot be trusted. We can't trust ourselves.  [edit]

This may be more telling that you realize. 
It may be time for you to let this go again, at least for awhile.
Find some trustworthy humans around you and try putting some faith in them and what they tell you.

(March 28, 2018 at 3:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 28, 2018 at 12:35 pm)Khemikal Wrote: You mean to tell us that magic book can;t be trusted to say what it means or mean what it says..and that..further..."visions" from god are just as likely to be tricks by the devil, Mystic?

Gee, whatever will we do..........?  I've got a suggestion.

I'm saying our minds cannot be trusted. We can't trust ourselves.  If the best of the best can err in vital perspectives, and we see this as possible, then it's a huge warning.

So there must be a refuge, and the refuge is the name of God, and that beautiful names of God are the navigating Captains.

---

(March 28, 2018 at 1:06 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: No one cares about your or anyone else’s holy books, because you have no evidence that anything within them is remotely true.

In this case, regardless of the accuracy of the story, we know it's rationally possible to get a vision from God (if God exists) and misinterpret it, and we know it's rationally possible for a person like Noah as high intelligence he is, to hear "your family will be saved" and assume it includes his son, but than God tells him you misunderstood what he meant by family, and so he is asking God what he has no knowledge of.

And in that, he made a lesson for all humans, to rely on what we know God meant and not what we don't know and not to rely on first impressions. And to seek clarification.

What does any of that have to do with what I said above?

(March 28, 2018 at 2:48 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Mk..just ask yourself -with total honesty- about this:
How in hell would someone jump from this:

Quote:Mysticknight said:

In all this, we must seek refuge in guidance from God.

to this:

Quote:Mysticknight said:

The leaders that are guided by God become a refuge of safety.

To become:

Quote:Mysticknight said:

In all this, we must seek refuge in guidance from God. The leaders that are guided by God become a refuge of safety.

?
The person feeding you these info is not just wrong; if I excused you for your health; I will never excuse them, because this is insulting: plain and simple.

I thought this was about Abraham. Why the hell am I reading about "Shiite leaders"; again?
I know it's not your fault; but the fault of the spoon that fed you this to say. I repeat my advice to you: ignore your society's orders; ignore your parent's orders too.

It's obviously related if the Quran relates the two in the Surahs that discuss these topics.   For example verse 3:7 is about interpretation, but than who are those to be relied on for it?

It takes us to the past, and reminds of the likes of Imran, Zakariya, Yahya, Isa, and Mariam.  They were a reliable means to get insights that would make people see the Torah as it was meant to be seen.

Instead people follow conjecture and misguiding leaders who God didn't give authority to. And in that discussion, also says, all Prophets would teach the people to be sages/scholars by which they teach of the book and by what they study.

And it talks about a rope from God and rope from humans, and we know in Bani-Israel the chosen successors of Moses were the rope from humans, while the holy revelations and books were the rope from God, together, they form the rope of God.

That is one Surah, and in fact, this discussion re-occurs through out the Quran, from many angles, from many perspectives.

Of course hadiths are minefield of poison and falsehood, so we are to seek refuge in Quran, but Quran is a minefield of misinterpretations that our mind put on it, so we are to seek refuge in hadiths, and together, we can make it out of the minefield.

I know you think how does it all work. But really, who else is going to show the proper understanding but God's appointed Guides, and where else will we verify that understanding but through the experience of the book which is the source of their high exalted knowledge.

And it's endless ocean this path.

---

(March 28, 2018 at 3:24 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: What does any of that have to do with what I said above?

You can learn from even video games or fiction stories, they don't have to be true, to learn a valuable lesson.

This especially true when it comes to proving a moral by reflection over a possibility.

It's all a matter of perspectives.  I don't think a Lord of the universe would expect humans to accept all what is stated in his book as facts before understanding how it proves itself and seeing the miracle it is for themselves.

You must have skipped over my post.

NO MK, there is nothing good or moral about a story that asks you to kill your own child. If you asked me to kill my cat, I would call you crazy and call the police. 


And the flood mythology is justifying genocide. Neither the Abraham mythology or the Noah mythology are the slightest bit moral. I'd say the same thing if you were a Christian or Jew arguing those same characters/stories.

(March 28, 2018 at 3:57 pm)Brian37 Wrote: You must have skipped over my post.

NO MK, there is nothing good or moral about a story that asks you to kill your own child. If you asked me to kill my cat, I would call you crazy and call the police. 


And the flood mythology is justifying genocide. Neither the Abraham mythology or the Noah mythology are the slightest bit moral. I'd say the same thing if you were a Christian or Jew arguing those same characters/stories.

Once again, you show you don't read my posts to even have a discussion. 

It's hard talking to you.

(March 28, 2018 at 3:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 28, 2018 at 12:35 pm)Khemikal Wrote: You mean to tell us that magic book can;t be trusted to say what it means or mean what it says..and that..further..."visions" from god are just as likely to be tricks by the devil, Mystic?

Gee, whatever will we do..........?  I've got a suggestion.

I'm saying our minds cannot be trusted. We can't trust ourselves.  If the best of the best can err in vital perspectives, and we see this as possible, then it's a huge warning.

So there must be a refuge, and the refuge is the name of God, and that beautiful names of God are the navigating Captains.

The devil would say that, wouldn't she.

(March 28, 2018 at 4:03 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(March 28, 2018 at 3:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I'm saying our minds cannot be trusted. We can't trust ourselves.  If the best of the best can err in vital perspectives, and we see this as possible, then it's a huge warning.

So there must be a refuge, and the refuge is the name of God, and that beautiful names of God are the navigating Captains.

The devil would say that, wouldn't he.

You know it to be true. For example, from your perspective, most humans get it wrong. They are biased. They are emotional. They rely on fallacies, and mix truth with falsehood.

Yet to say "I am different from everyone and I got it right", is foolishness.

There has to be a reliable way to get out of falsehood mixing with truth or otherwise admit it, we are sentenced to be ignorant and mix knowledge with conjecture, and truth with falsehood.

See how well she's got your scrote twisted up?  

You don't even realize what part of your own sentence I'm referring to.  Must be one of those demon-locks you're always talking about.

(March 28, 2018 at 3:27 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 28, 2018 at 2:48 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Mk..just ask yourself -with total honesty- about this:
How in hell would someone jump from this:


to this:



To become:



?
The person feeding you these info is not just wrong; if I excused you for your health; I will never excuse them, because this is insulting: plain and simple.

I thought this was about Abraham. Why the hell am I reading about "Shiite leaders"; again?
I know it's not your fault; but the fault of the spoon that fed you this to say. I repeat my advice to you: ignore your society's orders; ignore your parent's orders too.

It's obviously related if the Quran relates the two in the Surahs that discuss these topics.   For example verse 3:7 is about interpretation, but than who are those to be relied on for it?

It takes us to the past, and reminds of the likes of Imran, Zakariya, Yahya, Isa, and Mariam.  They were a reliable means to get insights that would make people see the Torah as it was meant to be seen.

Instead people follow conjecture and misguiding leaders who God didn't give authority to. And in that discussion, also says, all Prophets would teach the people to be sages/scholars by which they teach of the book and by what they study.

And it talks about a rope from God and rope from humans, and we know in Bani-Israel the chosen successors of Moses were the rope from humans, while the holy revelations and books were the rope from God, together, they form the rope of God.

That is one Surah, and in fact, this discussion re-occurs through out the Quran, from many angles, from many perspectives.

Of course hadiths are minefield of poison and falsehood, so we are to seek refuge in Quran, but Quran is a minefield of misinterpretations that our mind put on it, so we are to seek refuge in hadiths, and together, we can make it out of the minefield.

I know you think how does it all work. But really, who else is going to show the proper understanding but God's appointed Guides, and where else will we verify that understanding but through the experience of the book which is the source of their high exalted knowledge.

And it's endless ocean this path.

---

No. Bear with me and re-read what I wrote:

Quote:AtlasS33 said:

How in hell would someone jump from this:

Quote: Wrote:Mysticknight said:

In all this, we must seek refuge in guidance from God.

to this:

Quote: Wrote:Mysticknight said:

The leaders that are guided by God become a refuge of safety.

To become:

Quote: Wrote:Mysticknight said:

In all this, we must seek refuge in guidance from God. The leaders that are guided by God become a refuge of safety.

My point is very simple here: where do you get your interpretation from?
What is the context you rotate around every time you open a religious topic?

You already answered in the post above:

Quote: Mysticknight said:

The leaders that are guided by God become a refuge of safety.

Your context is Shiite Islam. And Shiite Islam has nothing to do with the Quran or whatsoever. Check this link:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-51114-p...pid1639955

MK: you are doing exactly what you are being told by your ancestors and society. You are not thinking for yourself. This is my point.
If you "surrender" your fate to people; you'll find yourself hitting a wall before you know it. Think for yourself; that's what I said.

I'm trying to help you. I already saw the books you preach -in their native language; too-: nothing there but wasteland.

(March 28, 2018 at 12:17 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Satan made him see it literally

Satan made Abraham autistic?!

... I'll see myself out.

Hey, I'm allowed to make these jokes now, being autistic myself

If anyone non-autistic ever makes an autistic joke I can be like "Dats racist" just for funsies lol.

It's a privilege, kinda like black rappers who say the N word lol.