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The idea of God always existing
RE: The idea of God always existing
(December 12, 2012 at 11:37 pm)Undeceived Wrote:
(December 12, 2012 at 6:07 am)pocaracas Wrote: My ignorance is a reflex of everyone's ignorance.
Being ignorant, how would you know that? How can it be said that a state of ignorance exists until proof fills the void unless one first has "proof" of what knowledge is to begin with?

Here is a map, you are in the middle now. Now find yourself a way out of Christianity. There's one rule to the game, you have only one lifetime, good luck!

[Image: d87f34c5-7d82-4dd3-9eeb-5eab2567b724.jpg]
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RE: The idea of God always existing
Am I the only one that thought that maze was easy?
My ignore list




"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
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RE: The idea of God always existing
(December 13, 2012 at 1:51 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Am I the only one that thought that maze was easy?

That's because you started at the exit, if you're stuck in the middle....it's like the Shining.
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RE: The idea of God always existing
(December 11, 2012 at 3:17 pm)pocaracas Wrote:
(December 11, 2012 at 3:13 pm)ronedee Wrote: The Creator is infinitely more intelligent than us!! So much so do we pale in comparison...that we can be compared to something...ANYTHING that ...oh just forget it!!

As always, this begs the question: How do you (or anyone) know about that?

I don't know of anyone who has met him in order for him to impart this knowledge on us.
(December 12, 2012 at 9:51 pm)Ryft Wrote: Given your non-answer here, I shall have to continue thinking that your ignorance is both irrelevant and contributes nothing helpful.
(December 12, 2012 at 11:37 pm)Undeceived Wrote:
(December 12, 2012 at 6:07 am)pocaracas Wrote: My ignorance is a reflex of everyone's ignorance.
Being ignorant, how would you know that? How can it be said that a state of ignorance exists until proof fills the void unless one first has "proof" of what knowledge is to begin with?

Isn't it amazing how deflection comes easy to theists with no answers?

I'll ask it again:

(December 11, 2012 at 3:13 pm)ronedee Wrote: The Creator is infinitely more intelligent than us!! So much so do we pale in comparison...that we can be compared to something...ANYTHING that ...oh just forget it!!
How do you (or anyone) know about that?
Reply
RE: The idea of God always existing
(December 13, 2012 at 6:12 am)pocaracas Wrote: Isn't it amazing how deflection comes easy to theists with no answers?

No answers? See the argumentum e silentio fallacy. (You seem to have a peculiar bent for irrelevancies.)
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
(Oscar Wilde)
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RE: The idea of God always existing
ok, I have some patience...

(December 11, 2012 at 3:13 pm)ronedee Wrote: The Creator is infinitely more intelligent than us!! So much so do we pale in comparison...that we can be compared to something...ANYTHING that ...oh just forget it!!
How do you (or anyone) know about that?
Reply
RE: The idea of God always existing
(December 13, 2012 at 12:16 pm)pocaracas Wrote: ok, I have some patience...

(December 11, 2012 at 3:13 pm)ronedee Wrote: The Creator is infinitely more intelligent than us!! So much so do we pale in comparison...that we can be compared to something...ANYTHING that ...oh just forget it!!
How do you (or anyone) know about that?


I do have a life outside of this forum...

I guess I could ask you the same question?

"IF" (FTSOA)....there is a God....eh...wouldn't it be a good guess He is pretty smart?

IMO and others, there's more reason to believe... "think" an omnipotent individual created all that we see? JUST BECAUSE WE ARE HERE!!

Now...If this is what you need to hear; there are (at least) 3 very physical elements in our lives that defiy our understanding and are explained only by theory: Time, Water, and Gravity.

Anyone can try to explain these things (w/ scientific pov). But the reality is that there is no difinitive answers!

And...it is the opinion of atheists that if you can't explain God in a physical sense, He doesn't exist.

A "thinking" individual can surmise there is indeed some mystery in life?

The difference is atheists aren't interested in a mystery that personally and directly involves them! Because it makes them vulnerable.

I remember as a kid, at Christmas or Thanksgiving dinner wanting to say a prayer of thanks to God. Although not very religious,(my dad and a brother are atheist/agnostic) my family members nodded and let me at it...

After my little prayer, my uncle sarcastically said: "Don't you feel stupid now?"

I looked around at everyones faces....They were all eagerly waiting for my reply! I entusiastically said: "NO, I don't feel stupid"!! No one including my uncle said a word. Everyone just started eating...And I had this great feeling of Joy!

Personally, I really felt what I said then! That was a difining moment in my spiritual evoltion. Something that can't be explained...only felt! Each of us has "something " that drives us...right? And we can't always put that into the "right" words!

So, yes...we are on very opposite ends of a sensitive issue!

Like I said when I first arrived here...I'm not here to convert anyone(although it would be a nice thought!), or shove my belief mechanism down anyones throat. I'm here to state, and defend my belief in Jesus.... and to challenge my own Faith!

Unfortunately, I haven't heard anything intelligent yet to rattle my cage!

It mostly sounds like an inner-city classroom here with insults and profanity the order of the day....w/ all the regular arguments on re-run!

But, pocaracas I appreciate your civil approach to our debate...because we can actually learn from each other! And maybe break some new ground on the old arguments. Ron
Quis ut Deus?
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RE: The idea of God always existing
ronedee Wrote:The difference is atheists aren't interested in a mystery that personally and directly involves them! Because it makes them vulnerable.

Perhaps you have trouble finding civil discourse because of statements like this. Telling people what they aren't interested in and why tends to rub people the wrong way.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: The idea of God always existing
(December 13, 2012 at 3:45 pm)ronedee Wrote:
(December 13, 2012 at 12:16 pm)pocaracas Wrote:
ronedee Wrote:The Creator is infinitely more intelligent than us!! So much so do we pale in comparison...that we can be compared to something...ANYTHING that ...oh just forget it!!
ok, I have some patience...

How do you (or anyone) know about that?

I guess I could ask you the same question?
What?
How do I know the characteristics of a Creator entity?
I don't.
You're the one who claims to know.

(December 13, 2012 at 3:45 pm)ronedee Wrote: "IF" (FTSOA)....there is a God....eh...wouldn't it be a good guess He is pretty smart?
That's one big IF.
We humans, as far as we know, cannot create Universes, no matter how smart we become. So I guess it has nothing to do with smartness...
This entity would know a lot about how to cook a Universe, or maybe it just happened once by mistake and he can't replicate it!
Who knows...?

(December 13, 2012 at 3:45 pm)ronedee Wrote: IMO and others, there's more reason to believe... "think" an omnipotent individual created all that we see? JUST BECAUSE WE ARE HERE!!

Now...If this is what you need to hear; there are (at least) 3 very physical elements in our lives that defiy our understanding and are explained only by theory: Time, Water, and Gravity.

Anyone can try to explain these things (w/ scientific pov). But the reality is that there is no difinitive answers!
Are you seriously going for the god of the gaps?
(December 13, 2012 at 3:45 pm)ronedee Wrote: And...it is the opinion of atheists that if you can't explain God in a physical sense, He doesn't exist.
Existence is a touchy subject.
What does it mean to exist?
To physically exist, you must have some form of energy.
But you would argue that emotions exist; ideas exist; imagined stories exist; imagined beings exist.... but are not physical.
Here, we may hit a stump as theists claim that god is a real entity... with at least one clear input on the physical world - the creation.
But for the knowledge of such entity to reach human minds, it must have provided more inputs into someone's physical brain. If such a thing happened far away in the past, it would have sparked the very first religion of humanity. That was clearly not christianity.... What was the first religion?
So, if this entity could do this to one human, maybe it could do it to others as well.... and, if he was pretty smart as you propose, he would have done it in a way that would be impossible to miss the point.... how come we then have several religions?

Why is belief a requirement?
Why must I, you and anyone believe that there was such an input from a deity on a few select human beings? Heck, the guy could provide that input to us all, or does he like to watch some of us convince others of a specific point of view that he provided to just one or two humans?

All these questions may lead one to hypothesize that these gods and religions were man-made...even if the original idea was sincere, but not necessarily true.
If they're man-made, all these questions can be answered. Hence atheism.
(December 13, 2012 at 3:45 pm)ronedee Wrote: A "thinking" individual can surmise there is indeed some mystery in life?

The difference is atheists aren't interested in a mystery that personally and directly involves them! Because it makes them vulnerable.
What makes what what?! Confused

This mystery you speak about... yeah... that's when the myth ends and the questions remain...
Man-made myths tend to suffer from that problem.


(December 13, 2012 at 3:45 pm)ronedee Wrote: I remember as a kid, at Christmas or Thanksgiving dinner wanting to say a prayer of thanks to God. Although not very religious,(my dad and a brother are atheist/agnostic) my family members nodded and let me at it...

After my little prayer, my uncle sarcastically said: "Don't you feel stupid now?"

I looked around at everyones faces....They were all eagerly waiting for my reply! I entusiastically said: "NO, I don't feel stupid"!! No one including my uncle said a word. Everyone just started eating...And I had this great feeling of Joy!

Personally, I really felt what I said then! That was a difining moment in my spiritual evoltion. Something that can't be explained...only felt! Each of us has "something " that drives us...right? And we can't always put that into the "right" words!

So, yes...we are on very opposite ends of a sensitive issue!
That would be the warm fuzzy feelings that have been discussed last week.

(December 13, 2012 at 3:45 pm)ronedee Wrote: Like I said when I first arrived here...I'm not here to convert anyone(although it would be a nice thought!), or shove my belief mechanism down anyones throat. I'm here to state, and defend my belief in Jesus.... and to challenge my own Faith!

Unfortunately, I haven't heard anything intelligent yet to rattle my cage!

It mostly sounds like an inner-city classroom here with insults and profanity the order of the day....w/ all the regular arguments on re-run!

But, pocaracas I appreciate your civil approach to our debate...because we can actually learn from each other! And maybe break some new ground on the old arguments. Ron
I can't say I'll provide any new arguments, but perhaps new light on old ones.
Enjoy your reading!
Reply
RE: The idea of God always existing
(December 14, 2012 at 12:10 pm)pocaracas Wrote: What?
How do I know the characteristics of a Creator entity?
I don't.
You're the one who claims to know.

I guess I should've rephrased the question to: "How don't you know?"

(December 13, 2012 at 3:45 pm)ronedee Wrote: IMO and others, there's more reason to believe... "think" an omnipotent individual created all that we see? JUST BECAUSE WE ARE HERE!!

Now...If this is what you need to hear; there are (at least) 3 very physical elements in our lives that defiy our understanding and are explained only by theory: Time, Water, and Gravity.

Anyone can try to explain these things (w/ scientific pov). But the reality is that there is no difinitive answers!

(December 14, 2012 at 12:10 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Are you seriously going for the god of the gaps?

No...just that mystery is a part of everyday life.

(December 13, 2012 at 3:45 pm)ronedee Wrote: And...it is the opinion of atheists that if you can't explain God in a physical sense, He doesn't exist.
(December 14, 2012 at 12:10 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Existence is a touchy subject.
What does it mean to exist?
To physically exist, you must have some form of energy.
But you would argue that emotions exist; ideas exist; imagined stories exist; imagined beings exist.... but are not physical.
Here, we may hit a stump as theists claim that god is a real entity... with at least one clear input on the physical world - the creation.
But for the knowledge of such entity to reach human minds, it must have provided more inputs into someone's physical brain. If such a thing happened far away in the past, it would have sparked the very first religion of humanity. That was clearly not christianity.... What was the first religion?
So, if this entity could do this to one human, maybe it could do it to others as well.... and, if he was pretty smart as you propose, he would have done it in a way that would be impossible to miss the point.... how come we then have several religions?

Why is belief a requirement?
Why must I, you and anyone believe that there was such an input from a deity on a few select human beings? Heck, the guy could provide that input to us all, or does he like to watch some of us convince others of a specific point of view that he provided to just one or two humans?

All these questions may lead one to hypothesize that these gods and religions were man-made...even if the original idea was sincere, but not necessarily true.
If they're man-made, all these questions can be answered. Hence atheism.
--------------------------
What makes what what?! Confused

This mystery you speak about... yeah... that's when the myth ends and the questions remain...
Man-made myths tend to suffer from that problem.

Well, you have good points for not believing in God. But, if one is to search for a meaning he has to do it with an open mind. I don't find atheists to be a very open-minded bunch...

The first question has to be why ? The only answer it can be is LOVE.
That is usually good but for the majority of "believers". It wasn't (at first) for me.

The second question then has to be how ? This is actually the hard question! How are we to think like God? What [Grand Plan] can it be that would present us with what we have today?

But, if you have an imagination, an open mind and yes Faith...it can make sense. Remember, what people ONLY imagined 100 years ago...even 50 years ago is reality today! So, lets use 2 outta 3?

I started my search around my mid-twenties. I was in my grandma's attic with boxes of books around me that I was cleaning out for her... I pickup and easy-read Holy Bible called "Good News". Someone had told me once if I asked a sincere question, then opened the bible I would get an answer!

So... I sat on one of those boxes, alone (with God) and asked "THE" question that any Christian worth his salt should ask: "Why did Christ die for my sins?" .... I opened the book to: page #377...Romans 5:18.
And there it was.... under a stickman picture of Jesus on the cross the words read: "One rightous act sets all men free, and gives them life."

Of course being very much less than a biblical scholar...this one line asked more questions than it answered for me. But, it put me onto a path to finally connect those dots over time.

I think I should stop at this point. If my continuing interests you pocaracas, then I will. If not, I won't. I've already said more to you about my spiritual path than I've told most of my Chrisitian friends....

1. Because they probably don't need me to tell them anything to increase their faith or understanding.

2. I don't usually talk about "my road", because it's not really ortodox christianity...but that wouldn't matter (I think?) to you.
Quis ut Deus?
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