The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.

[The Grand Nudger]

God said in Quran he could if he wanted to just send books from the heavens without interpreters or representatives. 

Why is it god always goes with his shittiest idea, rather than one that might actually work and demonstrate that he knows what he's doing?

[Mystic]

I think the author of Quran regardless who you believe it is. Whether people conspired and got Mohammad as a mouthpiece, or whether Mohammad, he is all too aware of how silly it sounds to tell people who are constantly asking for proof and a sign (no matter what is shown to them per quran whether moon splitting or other miracles, they keep asking this), to say Mohammad is the clear proof.

It's most against intuition thought when people ask what's your proof, to say I am the proof. It sound arrogant, and so most of the Quran doesn't reply directly in that fashion. But the Surah called the clear proof. It says it's a Messenger that recites them God's signs... 

And what are the proofs and signs of the past. It's people like Moses and Jesus. Like Noah and Abraham. 

The miracles they perform are display of some of the power they have.

And the Jews don't see Mohammad clearly in the book of Moses though I see it clearly. And I see it clearly due to the hadiths of Ahlulbayt (as).

But Mohammad in the Torah would not be proof, but it's the way he is in the Torah and how Quran elaborates it in such subtle way, integrating the truth of the family of Aaron and Moses with the family of Ali and Mohammad, and linking to the household of Abraham, and paraphrasing the prayer of Moses, and so on and so forth, that gives perspectives.

And then you have that perspective, and you can't but see Mohammad in the Torah.

It's one of the miracles is how silent the Quran is and yet how loud and clear it is. With reflection, it becomes so loud and clear. Without, it's seems confusing and mumbo jumbo.

And part of it is due to what it says of the sorcery regarding it. All to blind us from it.

Quran without mentioning the original prayer of Moses regarding the one who God will send, with the emphasis on the 2nd prayer of Moses with respect to Aaron which was after God got upset with Moses, and it proves everything.

It proves why we need revelations and Prophethood in the first place, why we need scriptures and Leaders to guide by God's command, and why we need guidance. 

And it proves exactly who is meant by "the one who God will send" and there is a whole theme about this.

And in all this, a healing type proof. A proof that only becomes apparent through reflection. And who we are connected to and by who and what means, all this, there is a healing.

Nowhere in all of that; I’m sorry; rambling, is anything resembling proof.  Why is it so hard for you to just admit you don’t have any?  At least I could respect the honesty.

I don't have any, I just point to the who are the proofs that have plenty of evidence and proofs they can show you of themselves and their holy sacred position. No scripture can be understood in the way it's meant to be at the level it's meant to be without the Guides the scriptures call to and appoint, to manifest it's wonders.

Scripture will never be enough despite Atlas repeating it, it's not the solution to abandon hadiths because they are mixed with falsehood, but go to them with reflection and courage, and only accept what you perceive and seek them to gain perceptions.

I haven't prove the above in this statement, merely, telling you the paradigm I work with.

I think whether you believe in God or Messengers or Guides or don't, you ought to give God a chance to guide through the means he has chosen as a means towards himself. 

As for the above sentence, I have provided so much reasoning for this over the year and I'm not going to repeat it all.

[Brian37]

God said in Quran he could if he wanted to just send books from the heavens without interpreters or representatives. 

Why is it god always goes with his shittiest idea, rather than one that might actually work and demonstrate that he knows what he's doing?

The claim of "all" in "all powerful" makes no damned sense at all to me once he gets humans to do his work for him. It puts humans in the position of being props, lab rats or toys. 

You know the old saying, "If you want something done right, do it yourself."

If you can blink the entire universe and our solar system into existence in a blink of an eye, it would seem pretty inefficient to use humans to write things down over thousands of years, especially after most of the 4 billion years of our species not existing, then wait 200,000 years ago to get to our current form, then wait only until 10,000 years ago to give our species the ability to write things down, and even then we are still fighting over which manual is the correct one. 

Why all the drama?

[Mystic]

God said in Quran he could if he wanted to just send books from the heavens without interpreters or representatives. 

Why is it god always goes with his shittiest idea, rather than one that might actually work and demonstrate that he knows what he's doing?

Per Atlas paradigm, this works. It would be the best solution. 

Per my paradigm it would be disaster causing things to be far worse. People would say, who is the proper interpreters. We all dispute regarding what it says, how do we know?

And the answer is always love, that has always been the answer and will always be the answer. Love towards the chosen leaders and the light of theirs that is found in all life, is the solution.

Always has been and always will be. People are jealous of what the grace vested in his chosen ones. They hate the idea of God selecting leaders and would rather everyone be on the same level.

But you can't love what you don't know at all, and so the books elaborate and manifest his beautiful navigating Captains who are instances of his name. They even manifest a consistent number with respect to the successors of the founder.

[Brian37]

Why is it god always goes with his shittiest idea, rather than one that might actually work and demonstrate that he knows what he's doing?

Per Atlas paradigm, this works. It would be the best solution. 

Per my paradigm it would be disaster causing things to be far worse. People would say, who is the proper interpreters. We all dispute regarding what it says, how do we know?

And the answer is always love, that has always been the answer and will always be the answer. Love towards the chosen leaders and the light of theirs that is found in all life, is the solution.

Always has been and always will be. People are jealous of what the grace vested in his chosen ones. They hate the idea of God selecting leaders and would rather everyone be on the same level.

But you can't love what you don't know at all, and so the books elaborate and manifest his beautiful navigating Captains who are instances of his name. They even manifest a consistent number with respect to the successors of the founder.

It can't be that humans made that up back then because they didn't know any better? CANT BE.

There you go with the word "navigation" again.

A compass helps you navigate. A holy book simply makes claims. GPS helps you navigate, a holy book only makes claims. 

Just like a Kaleidoscope is a kids toy, and the Hubble Space Telescope has given us real answers.

[Edwardo Piet]

Nowhere in all of that; I’m sorry; rambling, is anything resembling proof.  Why is it so hard for you to just admit you don’t have any?  At least I could respect the honesty.

Anyone else love how right LFC is?

[The Grand Nudger]

MK, I love my grandfather as hard as the day is long...but that doesn't mean the mans right about anything in particular or that I'd do what he does just because I love him. That's not a solution to any problem at all. That's just you telling us who you have the goodfeels for.

In case you weren't aware that I was already aware...I know you super duper love your imams and allah and all that djinns. Trouble is, I don't love what you love, I don't even give a shit what you love, and never asked you what you loved. I can understand why you would do something stupid..or even evil, out of love....but that kind of argues my point...now don't it?

You've been worked over, and somebody has their hooks in deep..but from the outside looking in this is madness, not truth.

-Why didn't allah do the smart thing? - "Because I heart imams so much!"

[WinterHold]

God will guide those who try. 

Oh?

Yes !

He guides; we choose.

Wow, three subtle conflicts, in what..three god claims?  Are you sure you can really set MK straight?  

In any case, god will either offer his guidance or god won't, for reasons or no reasons.  I'm unlikely to give a shit what either of your gods think..hearing your descriptions of said god.   I assume a god would have a better case than either of you...(though that;s not really a safe assumption whenever we discuss Jeff), but even if it did..it;s still possible that the case would be insufficient on it's own merits.

He believes in God like me; so you understand !
I hope that I'm not a lubricant for your disbelief in God.

[Mystic]

MK, I love my grandfather as hard as the day is long...but that doesn't mean the mans right about anything in particular or that I'd do what he does just because I love him.  That's not a solution to any problem at all.  That's just you telling us who you have the goodfeels for.

In case you weren't aware that we were already aware...we know you super duper love your imams and allah and all of that.

Love values a relationship as it's meant to be.

The relationship we are suppose to have with the Guides is to make them the eyes by which we see.

---

Why all the drama?

So if God helps, he is condemned for helping, and we don't take his help because we hate authority vested in his chosen ones, we blame him.  And if he doesn't help,  than the drama we blame on who exactly?  Both cases, it's us. I rather God help us out of our injustice then sit by and watch.

---

Nowhere in all of that; I’m sorry; rambling, is anything resembling proof.  Why is it so hard for you to just admit you don’t have any?  At least I could respect the honesty.

Anyone else love how right LFC is?

I think she is married and you got to get over her. 

[WinterHold]

Does the above, relates to the Shiite faith?

Yes it does, because the jealousy was always regarding the chosen guides of God and the truthful followers were always hated out of jealousy to their link to the Guides. Abraham was rejected not because people didn't want to believe in a Creator, people hated the idea of Abraham vested with the authority of God.

The same Surah goes to talk about Leadership and Kingship and Prophethood and Messengerhood in all this.

Belief in Prophets has two aspects.

1. Need of revelation from God (you accept this)
2. Need of Leadership of his trustees (you reject this).

God said in Quran he could if he wanted to just send books from the heavens without interpreters or representatives. He could also have made Angels as the rulers and representatives on his behalf.

But he chose not to. 

The witness we will be called with are from ourselves, a human living among humans, a leader and navigator who we will be called to account with and will testify against us.

A big theme of Quran is about the witnesses. 

I don't think it's enough to believe in holy books to believe in Prophets just as it's not enough to believe in leadership from God to believe in Prophets.

You have to believe in the guiding nature of scripture along side the Leaders who guide by his command, the latter being Prophets in all times, except when God sealed Prophethood, those who possess the authority from us were no longer prophets.

And the seal of revelation is to unite humanity. God doesn't just decide to put an end to revelation and the Master King promised to restore justice and balance to the world is part of the plan. 

And if you don't see that and the warnings regarding him, you see very little in Quran.

I still don't see how this relates to my question here; MK:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-51114-p...pid1638839