The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.

[Brian37]

If there were proof we wouldn't need those leaders.  

Unless the leaders are the proofs, see the Surah called "The manifest proof". It didn't say it's the Quran alone, it said it's a Messenger who recites...

"Unless" that's a big assumption on your part.

Is it that they really are, or simply that you desire to be part of something?

You don't need a religion to do good or be good. You don't need to be a follower either.

[Mystic]

Unless the leaders are the proofs

If you think that, then you don’t understand what the word proof means, MK.

I think the author of Quran regardless who you believe it is. Whether people conspired and got Mohammad as a mouthpiece, or whether Mohammad, he is all too aware of how silly it sounds to tell people who are constantly asking for proof and a sign (no matter what is shown to them per quran whether moon splitting or other miracles, they keep asking this), to say Mohammad is the clear proof.

It's most against intuition thought when people ask what's your proof, to say I am the proof. It sound arrogant, and so most of the Quran doesn't reply directly in that fashion. But the Surah called the clear proof. It says it's a Messenger that recites them God's signs... 

And what are the proofs and signs of the past. It's people like Moses and Jesus. Like Noah and Abraham. 

The miracles they perform are display of some of the power they have.

And the Jews don't see Mohammad clearly in the book of Moses though I see it clearly. And I see it clearly due to the hadiths of Ahlulbayt (as).

But Mohammad in the Torah would not be proof, but it's the way he is in the Torah and how Quran elaborates it in such subtle way, integrating the truth of the family of Aaron and Moses with the family of Ali and Mohammad, and linking to the household of Abraham, and paraphrasing the prayer of Moses, and so on and so forth, that gives perspectives.

And then you have that perspective, and you can't but see Mohammad in the Torah.

It's one of the miracles is how silent the Quran is and yet how loud and clear it is. With reflection, it becomes so loud and clear. Without, it's seems confusing and mumbo jumbo.

And part of it is due to what it says of the sorcery regarding it. All to blind us from it.

Quran without mentioning the original prayer of Moses regarding the one who God will send, with the emphasis on the 2nd prayer of Moses with respect to Aaron which was after God got upset with Moses, and it proves everything.

It proves why we need revelations and Prophethood in the first place, why we need scriptures and Leaders to guide by God's command, and why we need guidance. 

And it proves exactly who is meant by "the one who God will send" and there is a whole theme about this.

And in all this, a healing type proof. A proof that only becomes apparent through reflection. And who we are connected to and by who and what means, all this, there is a healing.

[The Grand Nudger]

Jesus christ MK...........................................

[WinterHold]

If it's sufficient; there won't be a "but with".

Ok so what happens if people read Quran heedlessly and don't reflect?
Because part of it's paradigm is that reflection is required for guidance.

I'll quote the Quran to answer you:

Sura 2, The Quran:
( 213 )   Mankind was [of] one religion [before their deviation]; then Allah sent the prophets as bringers of good tidings and warners and sent down with them the Scripture in truth to judge between the people concerning that in which they differed. And none differed over the Scripture except those who were given it - after the clear proofs came to them - out of jealous animosity among themselves. And Allah guided those who believed to the truth concerning that over which they had differed, by His permission. And Allah guides whom He wills to a straight path.

God will guide those who try. Try your best; read; if you catch the prophet alive follow him; if he's dead look for the scripture that was given to him. This is what the verse says. Literally.

Does the above, relates to the Shiite faith?

So it is sufficient to guide us or are we required to reflect and use our minds?

Verse 213 of Sura 2 said:

out of jealous animosity among themselves. And Allah guided those who believed to the truth concerning that over which they had differed, by His permission. And Allah guides whom He wills to a straight path.

I would say one should remove jealousy off their hearts, rely on God to guide them. He will guide whom he wills.

Ok suppose it is not sufficient, the issue God is sufficient as a Guide.

He is the reliable support. In the past, scriptures along with Ahlulbayts like the family of Abraham was always the way, but from some reason, Mohammad's family you think is undermining revelation, when rather, it's the way God makes sure revelation to be followed not according to whim but insight.

I didn't understand the first line.
No. Always God alone was the source of guidance. He guides; we choose.

[Edwardo Piet]

I'm saying our minds cannot be trusted. We can't trust ourselves.

I trust my mind just fine.  It's you I have my eye on.

My mind is so trustworthy that it's a more reliable authority than my own eyes, and have great eyesight and can see just fine.

If I saw with my very own eyes what looked exactly like a guy who looked like Jesus fall from the sky, declare to everyone in front of him that he was the son of God and had finally came back like he said he would, and that the rapture was going to come at 9.PM... and then he proceeded to turn a bunch of water into wine and bread loaves into fishes.... my mind's reaction would be:

"I'm either hallucinating or dreaming. So I better get myself to the doctor and tell them about my hallucination... because if I'm dreaming it's a moot situation and inconsequential but if I'm really awake and hallucinating then I need to get my head checked."

That's how trustworthy my mind is!

[WinterHold]

---

It's not even a thing but if you believe in the Hadith.
Hundreds of Hadiths mention the case, and that what creates the sects: two masses of Muslims, who -just like MK- believe in the following:



"The But With" is the Hadith books that define the two sects.
Open the Quran alone; and you won't find a word about the "but with".

Tell me can a person just read Quran and not know Arabic. So what happens then?

It in fact emphasizes so many people will remain utterly blind to it's clear proofs and won't hear any of it's wisdom. And you witness this is the state of humans over all.

But Muslims expanded everywhere and translated the Quran to almost all languages.
Christians did the same before them.
Jews did the same before them.

And those who died before catching the scripture are mentioned in this verse:

Sura 23, The Quran:

( 117 )   And whoever invokes besides Allah another deity for which he has no proof - then his account is only with his Lord. Indeed, the disbelievers will not succeed.

Leave it to God. Good people will be excused if they were ignorant.

[Brian37]

If you think that, then you don’t understand what the word proof means, MK.

I think the author of Quran regardless who you believe it is. Whether people conspired and got Mohammad as a mouthpiece, or whether Mohammad, he is all too aware of how silly it sounds to tell people who are constantly asking for proof and a sign (no matter what is shown to them per quran whether moon splitting or other miracles, they keep asking this), to say Mohammad is the clear proof.

It's most against intuition thought when people ask what's your proof, to say I am the proof. It sound arrogant, and so most of the Quran doesn't reply directly in that fashion. But the Surah called the clear proof. It says it's a Messenger that recites them God's signs... 

And what are the proofs and signs of the past. It's people like Moses and Jesus. Like Noah and Abraham. 

The miracles they perform are display of some of the power they have.

And the Jews don't see Mohammad clearly in the book of Moses though I see it clearly. And I see it clearly due to the hadiths of Ahlulbayt (as).

But Mohammad in the Torah would not be proof, but it's the way he is in the Torah and how Quran elaborates it in such subtle way, integrating the truth of the family of Aaron and Moses with the family of Ali and Mohammad, and linking to the household of Abraham, and paraphrasing the prayer of Moses, and so on and so forth, that gives perspectives.

And then you have that perspective, and you can't but see Mohammad in the Torah.

It's one of the miracles is how silent the Quran is and yet how loud and clear it is. With reflection, it becomes so loud and clear. Without, it's seems confusing and mumbo jumbo.

And part of it is due to what it says of the sorcery regarding it. All to blind us from it.

Quran without mentioning the original prayer of Moses regarding the one who God will send, with the emphasis on the 2nd prayer of Moses with respect to Aaron which was after God got upset with Moses, and it proves everything.

It proves why we need revelations and Prophethood in the first place, why we need scriptures and Leaders to guide by God's command, and why we need guidance. 

And it proves exactly who is meant by "the one who God will send" and there is a whole theme about this.

And in all this, a healing type proof. A proof that only becomes apparent through reflection. And who we are connected to and by who and what means, all this, there is a healing.

You SERIOUSLY need to go find a Twitter Page, or Facebook page, or website in general to debate former Muslims. They'll be happy to explain to you why you don't need your religion.

https://www.exmna.org/ 

Or

https://www.ex-muslim.org.uk/


This lady Ayaan Ali diched Islam, and you can too.

https://twitter.com/ayaan?lang=en

[The Grand Nudger]

God will guide those who try. 

Oh?

 He will guide whom he wills.

......now wait a minute.......

He guides; we choose.

Wow, three subtle conflicts, in what..three god claims?  Are you sure you can really set MK straight?  

In any case, god will either offer his guidance or god won't, for reasons or no reasons.  I'm unlikely to give a shit what either of your gods think..hearing your descriptions of said god.   I assume a god would have a better case than either of you...(though that;s not really a safe assumption whenever we discuss Jeff), but even if it did..it;s still possible that the case would be insufficient on it's own merits.

[Mystic]

Does the above, relates to the Shiite faith?

Yes it does, because the jealousy was always regarding the chosen guides of God and the truthful followers were always hated out of jealousy to their link to the Guides. Abraham was rejected not because people didn't want to believe in a Creator, people hated the idea of Abraham vested with the authority of God.

The same Surah goes to talk about Leadership and Kingship and Prophethood and Messengerhood in all this.

Belief in Prophets has two aspects.

1. Need of revelation from God (you accept this)
2. Need of Leadership of his trustees (you reject this).

God said in Quran he could if he wanted to just send books from the heavens without interpreters or representatives. He could also have made Angels as the rulers and representatives on his behalf.

But he chose not to. 

The witness we will be called with are from ourselves, a human living among humans, a leader and navigator who we will be called to account with and will testify against us.

A big theme of Quran is about the witnesses. 

I don't think it's enough to believe in holy books to believe in Prophets just as it's not enough to believe in leadership from God to believe in Prophets.

You have to believe in the guiding nature of scripture along side the Leaders who guide by his command, the latter being Prophets in all times, except when God sealed Prophethood, those who possess the authority from us were no longer prophets.

And the seal of revelation is to unite humanity. God doesn't just decide to put an end to revelation and the Master King promised to restore justice and balance to the world is part of the plan. 

And if you don't see that and the warnings regarding him, you see very little in Quran.

[LadyForCamus]

If you think that, then you don’t understand what the word proof means, MK.

I think the author of Quran regardless who you believe it is. Whether people conspired and got Mohammad as a mouthpiece, or whether Mohammad, he is all too aware of how silly it sounds to tell people who are constantly asking for proof and a sign (no matter what is shown to them per quran whether moon splitting or other miracles, they keep asking this), to say Mohammad is the clear proof.

It's most against intuition thought when people ask what's your proof, to say I am the proof. It sound arrogant, and so most of the Quran doesn't reply directly in that fashion. But the Surah called the clear proof. It says it's a Messenger that recites them God's signs... 

And what are the proofs and signs of the past. It's people like Moses and Jesus. Like Noah and Abraham. 

The miracles they perform are display of some of the power they have.

And the Jews don't see Mohammad clearly in the book of Moses though I see it clearly. And I see it clearly due to the hadiths of Ahlulbayt (as).

But Mohammad in the Torah would not be proof, but it's the way he is in the Torah and how Quran elaborates it in such subtle way, integrating the truth of the family of Aaron and Moses with the family of Ali and Mohammad, and linking to the household of Abraham, and paraphrasing the prayer of Moses, and so on and so forth, that gives perspectives.

And then you have that perspective, and you can't but see Mohammad in the Torah.

It's one of the miracles is how silent the Quran is and yet how loud and clear it is. With reflection, it becomes so loud and clear. Without, it's seems confusing and mumbo jumbo.

And part of it is due to what it says of the sorcery regarding it. All to blind us from it.

Quran without mentioning the original prayer of Moses regarding the one who God will send, with the emphasis on the 2nd prayer of Moses with respect to Aaron which was after God got upset with Moses, and it proves everything.

It proves why we need revelations and Prophethood in the first place, why we need scriptures and Leaders to guide by God's command, and why we need guidance. 

And it proves exactly who is meant by "the one who God will send" and there is a whole theme about this.

And in all this, a healing type proof. A proof that only becomes apparent through reflection. And who we are connected to and by who and what means, all this, there is a healing.

Nowhere in all of that; I’m sorry; rambling, is anything resembling proof.  Why is it so hard for you to just admit you don’t have any?  At least I could respect the honesty.